I watched the 9/11 truth Oly FOR program today at Glen's house, and I recommend it. (He's also telling the truth about the free popcorn.) The TV program is very thoughtful. It does honor to those who were killed on 9/11/01. And it lends credibility to the movement investigating 9/11 for public accountability. I received this via email from Glen Anderson:
“9-11 Truth: Is It OK to Ask Questions?”
You have two more opportunities (THURS SEPT 25 at 9:00 p.m. and MON SEPT 29 at 1:30 p.m.) to watch the Olympia FOR’s TCTV programs about what really happened on 9-11-2001. In case you don’t have cable or live outside of Thurston County, you may borrow a DVD or VHS copy, or you may watch it at Glen Anderson’s home with free popcorn.
For more than 21 years the Olympia FOR has produced one-hour TV programs on issues related to peace, social justice, economics, the environment, and nonviolence. The Olympia FOR’s program airs on Thurston Community Television (TCTV), channel 22 for Thurston County’s cable TV subscribers. Each program airs EVERY Monday at 1:30 p.m. and EVERY Thursday at 9:00 p.m. for a full month. This creates many opportunities to watch each program.
“9-11 Truth: Is It OK to Ask Questions?”
Beginning on September 11, 2001, the government and mainstream news media were quick to give us a story line about what had happened. They said, for example, that they had found the passport of one of the hijackers immediately below the point where the airplane had struck the World Trade Center many hundreds of feet above. Somehow his passport had come out of his pocket and out of the airplane and had fallen exactly straight below and had not been singed by the fires and had not been blown away by the tremendous wind created by the falling skyscraper. The mainstream news reported this as evidence supporting the government’s contention that it knew who the individuals were who had done it.
On the very next day Dick Cheney said that we needed to respond by attacking Iraq.
Bush told us to just go shopping and let him fight a war. Ordinary people put flags outside their houses and attached “United We Stand” stickers to their vehicles. Bush told us that if we are not “with” his policies, then we’re “against” the U.S. The government, mainstream media, and American culture all emphasized the need for patriotism and “rallying around the flag.”
The very next month Bush launched a war against Afghanistan, and Congress passed the PATRIOT Act without reading it. Everything was happening at once, and people felt overwhelmed by the rush of events. Author Naomi Klein explains how extremists within the government cause massive “shock” to make the public feel vulnerable to radical change from the top down, and to manipulate and exploit the public to achieve the extremists’ selfish goals. They started wars, militarized several aspects of the U.S., pushed laws through, took away our rights, illegally spied on us, and did many other things in the wake of the 9-11 “shock.”
Soon after September 11, a few people started challenging some of the bizarre “evidence” that the government and mainstream media were feeding us. People started asking questions but were not getting credible answers.
A growing number of people were discovering evidence that undermined the official story about what had happened on September 11. The Bush/Cheney administration vigorously resisted creating an official commission to study it. When public pressure became too much, they allowed an official commission to be formed, but they staffed the commission with loyalists. The commission did not pursue the most challenging questions, nor consider the most provocative evidence.
The official orthodoxy has been trying to make it “not OK” to ask questions. But a “9-11 Truth” movement has been growing. Increasing numbers of people have been questioning the orthodoxy, and a substantial number of people think that elements within the government either had a hand in the September 11 tragedies or at least knew they were coming and allowed them to occur.
Most skeptics are not “conspiracy nuts,” as the official culture would have us believe. Most skeptics are thoughtful, well informed and respected citizens who have studied the facts, found that the official story has holes in it, found evidence that rebuts the official story, and discovered what seem to be deliberate attempts to prevent the truth from coming out.
Is it OK to ask questions about 9-11 now?
The Olympia FOR’s September TV program helps us open up the possibility of asking questions and considering evidence. Our guests will be Drew Gibbs and Terry Macinata, two local persons who have calmly and thoughtfully been asking questions and studying the facts.
The simplest explanation is that 9/11 was a controlled demolition: most likely, an inside job.
All the other stuff about magically indestructible passports, the laws of thermodynamics magically changing, Tower 7 magically falling down for no particular reason, etc... it's just a bunch of convoluted fairytales.
I was perfectly serious. Please try to accept that other people, who are intelligent, reasonable, and have examined the evidence as much as (if not more than) you have, may arrive at conclusions quite different than yours.
BTY, I have read the NIST report. I lack the engineering knowledge to say I fully comprehend all of it but it makes a lot more sense than demo crews sneaking in and rigging tons of explosives w/out anyone finding out.
To quote Kyle of South Park "A bunch of pissed off Muslims!"
It's healthy to ask questions, but the truth is a pair of 300,000lb 767 traveling at over 400 mph and carrying 42,000 gallons of jet fuel ignited infernos that brought the towers down.
Are there discrepancies in the details? For such an unprecedented event I'm surprised there aren't more but the basic narrative holds up. Was the horror used by the neo-cons to promote crass political agendas? Of course. Are 911 Truthers trying to do the same? Sadly, yes. Moving on.
I agree that some people in the 9/11 truth movement discredit themselves by making assumptions that there simply isn't enough evidence to support. However, what is clear is that the official theories about what happened on 9/11, are full of holes and do less to explain the actual events than the controlled demolition theory.
For example, the official theory does nothing to explain how 25 ton chunks of structural steel were ejected 500 feet out from the building as it collapsed (supposedly under its own weight with no help from explosives.)
The official story also doesn't do anything to explain thermate, that was found on collapses structural steel.
The official story doesn't explain molten metal found at the disaster site.
If you're a doubter, you owe it to yourself to pick up a copy of this film. You might be surprised.
Many experts agree that the free fall of the buildings can only be explained by controlled demolition.
Do you think that there are people who are nefarious enough to try something as insidious as a false flag attack in order to achieve political power?
I, personally, wouldn't put it past Cheney. It's very interesting to follow his history, and his footsteps leading up to, and after, the horrendous events of September 11th, 2001.
As seen in this revealing photo the Twin Towers' destruction exhibited all the characteristics of destruction by explosions: (and some non-standard characteristics)
And exhibited none of the characteristics of destruction by fire, i.e.
1.
Slow onset with large visible deformations
2.
Asymmetrical collapse which follows the path of least resistance (laws of conservation of momentum would cause a falling, intact, from the point of plane impact, to the side most damaged by the fires)
Submitted by a.future.with.n... on Thu, 09/25/2008 - 1:16am.
What does it matter? Assume the government did blow up the world trade center. What are you going to do about it? Vote different?
Do you really need an elaborate story to discredit the government anyway? Unless the 9/11 truth movement also advocates armed violent revolution I don't really see the point. So you can say "I told you so?" Seriously. What if they just came out and admitted it? What then?
Unless people are willing the challenge the real seat of power, than what good is speculating on conspiracies? If you are willing to challenge power, don't you think there's better issues to press than 9/11?
It's an effort to pressure Congress to pursue this matter - to pursue accountability... It's also an attempt to raise the consciousness of the American people - for purposes of empowerment. People need to know the truth. Then they can take appropriate action, whether that is to go back to their normal lives, or it is to take action in self-defense against a tyrannical, aggressive and war-making government. For one, call your congressperson! I know it's hard. But the more of us who take the time to make those calls, the harder it is for them to ignore.
I also tend to believe that the government, even as it exists in a state of overwhelm by influence of major corporations, still serves at varying levels (more so at state and local levels probably) as a protector against some of the more harsher abuses that a pure corporate state would evince.
I shudder to think of the world we would have if Corporations had free and unregulated reign over society.
Maybe I am wrong. Maybe the government does more harm than good. But at this point, with the way the biggest business corporations are pursuing an ends justify the means approach to the bottom line it seems that government is providing at least some base level protections against what might otherwise be the unmitigated onslaught of corporate power.
I have been wrong before. I wish that government and corporations would just decide to be nice and take care of people, plants, animals and planet. It's kind of scary.
I think that if those who may have conspired to demolish the WTC on 9/11 were to just come forward and admit the act - that it would cause a major panic - a major, and drastic, societal upheaval. That's probably a major factor in terms of why the official theories, and the official investigations, are so profoundly lacking in scope and detail.
It's about maintaining order. It's about maintaining an appearance of normality. If it was found that members of our own government participated in an attack against their own country, our own country... Well that would certainly take a chunk out of their argument for a global war on terror...(to say the least).
The difference that it would make is between the justification for a crusade for global dominance disguised as a global war on terror, and the reality of pulling back the curtain to expose and confront the wizard. Remember to follow the yellow brick road.
How many millions have been killed, how many millions more suffer - as a result of the desire of a relatively few individuals' desire for pure power and political dominance?
I'm sure you've heard this argument before, but: people might be more willing to challenge the seat of power if they had less faith in it. Everyone complains about the government's flaws, but they still consider it essentially good and necessary for their protection. 9/11 Truth could change that.
You comment about violent revolution, or "overthrow," got me to thinking...
I do not advocate violence. Though sometimes I do get angry and frustrated, I simply do not believe that violence will bring true solutions to the problems and conflicts of today's world.
However, the protective use of force (see Rosenberg video) is a different story. Like Marshall Rosenberg, I think the use of controlled and limited force can be quite legitimate if it is intended to prevent harm from occurring.
The Port Militarization Resistance Movement has been an effort toward just this type of protective use of force. PMR attempted to use force to blockade and physically obstruct the tools that are used for aggression as it is being committed by our own government. Quite simple really. I think, that if kept true, the message of PMR has potential to reach a broader sympathetic audience. That's why The Olympian always tried to portray the PMR actions as violent and destructive - when they were by and large nonviolent (yes, unfortunately with exceptions.)
I think the 9/11 Truth Movement has a similar basic intention of protection. The Movement seeks to protect innocent people from the harm that, it appears, powerful individuals are doing.
Did members of our own government, and/or citizens of the USA, conspire (with bin Laden) to perpetrate an attack against the one of the very central symbols of global economic activity, the WTC towers in NYC?
Like the other replier to your comment said, if it was proven beyond the shadow of reasonable doubt, and accepted officially, that the towers were taken down in a controlled demolition - it would demonstrate that a major cover-up has thus far occurred. Motive points to Cheney, global hegemonists et al..
What is required is cooperation from the official avenues of government however, to lend the investigation the necessary authority, and credibility that it will need in order to be presented to the American people. I need the truth. The people need the truth. We need it for healing.
Submitted by a.future.with.n... on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 2:18am.
I'm sorry, that was too easy.
I think thats a weak answer, we need it for "healing". You know what we really need for healing? Socialized health care. Also, it would be nice if housing would be viewed as a human right.
You want to know the funny part? I wouldn't put it past the government to do something like late, what with the history of mass sterilization, execution, torture et al. I just don't care. I think the whole 9/11 truth "movement" is just another neaner neaner attempt on the part of liberals who like to point fingers at the president.
Now I hate the president too, but he's just another idiot propping up a real big SYSTEM. That system is my enemy. I think finger pointing at GWB is just a bunch of anal retentive self righteousness. I really don't see what outcome you're going for. Total civil war? Direct armed struggle? I mean seriously, what do you think would happen if incontrovertible proof that the US government pulled off 9/11 surfaced, healing?
You just like talking about the bad things the bush administration has done and you use this blog as your primary sounding board as evidenced by the multiple blogs you post towing a party line everyday here.
I don't read most of them, but this one seemed, well, special. If you really want to expose 9/11 for what it is than get of your high horse and pick up a gun because a gap in faith that big brought about by a betrayal of that scale means a whole lot of people are going to die. This is the same government that blew up the twin towers, remember. What, do you think they'll go quietly into the night, say they're sorry and just let everyone start to get over it?
Be careful what path these shrill criticisms take you down. I think in this thread you have exposed a crack in your peacenik exterior.
We all saw what happened when PMR activists attempted to employ a protective use of force - they were brutalized by the police. Nonthreatening activists engaged in acts of civil resistance to the illegal and immoral aggression of our government were brutalized in broad daylight by members of the police who are, by the way, sworn to protect people. This time - the police chose to protect property, instead of people.
It was sad and frustrating to see the harm that was done.
It is sad and frustrating to see the harm that has been done by members of the Bush Administration as they have taken advantage of the horrendous 9/11 attacks to pursue a private agenda of global domination.
I hope, for the sake of the survivors of the 9/11 tragedy, that these unanswered questions can be addressed and resolved.
It was a fairy-tale political season for George W. Bush, and it seemed like no one in the world noticed. Amid bombs in London, bloodshed in Iraq, a missing blonde in Aruba and a scandal curling up on the doorstep of Karl Rove, Bush's Republican Party quietly celebrated a massacre on Capitol Hill. Two of the most long-awaited legislative wet dreams of the Washington Insiders Club -- an energy bill and a much-delayed highway bill -- breezed into law. One mildly nervous evening was all it took to pass through the House the Central American Free Trade Agreement (CAFTA), for years now a primary strategic focus of the battle-in-Seattle activist scene. And accompanied by scarcely a whimper from the Democratic opposition, a second version of the notorious USA Patriot Act passed triumphantly through both houses of Congress, with most of the law being made permanent this time.
In the case of the 9/11 WTC towers' collapse, there is credible evidence to suggest that the official story is drastically incomplete. The official stories about bin Laden masterminding the attack are conspiracy theories. The theory that a group of people conspired to implement the controlled demolition of the towers has credible justification. That's the difference. Some of the theories mentioned above are no better than the "land octopus" rumor that was circulating about an octopus that lives in trees around the Hood Canal.
There is credible and substantial evidence to suggest, and to justify further investigation and analysis (official and otherwise), that the towers were brought down in a controlled demolition. Now who would be sick enough to do such a thing? And why hasn't the official story addressed the evidence that suggests this obvious possibility.
It's not about conspiracy theories, per se. It's about credibility.
Comparing the 9/11 controlled demolition to some of the above mentioned "conspiracy theories" is an insult to all of the people, the workers, the first responders, the airline passengers, who died that day.
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Fri, 09/26/2008 - 1:26pm.
Can you understand that saying there was a controlled demolition might be insulting to the people whom you are trying to keep from being insulted?
Lighten up, dude...
You claim there is evidence but offer none. I am an open minded person who spent a too much time studying and watching all of the Truther propaganda and quite frankly Occam's Razor shreds it all. Are there unanswered questions? Of course there are, find me a historical event without them.
You can get upset and claim to be offended if you like, I can't help that. Just remember, before you respond, that I've probably spent more time than most researching 9/11 and ALL of the various "theories" surrounding it.
The "official" story has holes in it, sure, but nothing compared to the idea that three gigantic buildings were rigged with explosives from top to sub-basement with no one outside of the conspirators finding out and none of the conspirators leaking it. Think about the grand scale of the conspiracy that would have to take place and you'll see how impossible it sounds. We're talking thousands of people, from laborers to planners, a lot of them would have to be American so as not to arouse suspicion, conspiring to kill thousands of people, fellow countrymen, by knocking down three buildings two of which are among the tallest in the world and happen to be considered the economic capital of the world, and no one with any credibility or corroboration has come forward and said, "I helped wire the building with explosives, I can't take the guilt anymore and had to come clean." Not a single person. This conspiracy theory implodes on itself much like the towers did.
There is credible and substantial evidence to suggest, and to justify further investigation and analysis (official and otherwise), that the towers were brought down in a controlled demolition.
No there is not! The controlled demo theory is A FLAT OUT LIE!
It really is a waste of time for me to repute the Truther lies you have swallowed when others have already done so. Come on Bert, you're smarter than this.
As if that isn't precisely what you've done, and continue doing here? Just look at this thread -- all of the ignoring and discrediting is coming from you, Laurian, FRESH, etc. It's like you can't even think about anything that might contradict the premise you cling so dearly to.
I say if you wanna buy the official story so badly, just freakin' buy it already, and let other people keep searching for the truth in peace.
I'll listen to reason, how about that? I'll study the evidence and make up my mind using logic based facts. So far, the Truthers haven't shown me the evidence.
Good luck in your search, I promise to keep an open mind.
I HAVE considered many of the alternatives to the NIST report including extra-terrestrial intervention and rejected them as wanting.
SMASH, do you subscribe to the theory of evolution? There are holes in the theory one could drive a truck through but despite some serious lack of detailed evidence, the theory best describes the evidence before us. Such is the NIST report. Like Creationism, (God did it all) Truthers begin with a conclusion (the US govnt is evil) then select the premises which support the desired conclusion.
I guess what drives me absolutely nuts about the Truther movement is that it is another example of the rise of secular mythology; Fundamentalism sans Deity. Belief without sound evidence is as dangerous as it is wrong.
It's funny you mention fundamentalism. In an earlier post I had compared anti-truthers (for want of a better name) to fundamentalists and the NIST report to the bible, but deleted it as too inflammatory. This isn't some random web forum, it's one full of my neighbors and I'd like to keep it civil.
I just wish you could see that you're doing exactly what you describe, and that you look just as much like a zealot.
Submitted by Laurian on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 11:42am.
is the product of scientific process, the Bible is a collection of Semetic stories and laws. Comparing the two is exactly the kind of reductionist fundamentalism that leads Truthers believe in fairy tales.
Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 09/25/2008 - 12:50pm.
...Massoud was killed the day before, and I'm pretty sure that what happened in New York was a "combo":
There are many questions, and our GOV just doesn't seem interested in "the truth" anymore-
-the confusion is so deep, that some folks don't trust the GOV anymore, and with the track record of the CIA and Pak.'s ISI involvement with Afghanistan and OBL, I'm not surprised if the 9/11 mess was part radical plot and part "jumps-start" for Bush's Jihad~
After what we have learned about Pearl Harbor and Vietnam, I have a hard time drinking the GOV's kool-aid on this one-
The military is the answer, but only for defense of our "homeland", and not for the occupation and expense of foreign service for "allies".
If need be, sell American expertise to the highest bidder, but please stop exhorting US tax-payers for what amounts to costly "wargames".
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 09/26/2008 - 1:55pm.
Our government might have lied about Tonkin and may have (that's a big "may have") allowed Pearl Harbor to happen. Why on God's earth would they risk choreographing spectacular hijackings and "controlled demolitions" when they could simply blow up another USS Maine.
But please, ask all the questions you want.
I am not familiar with that. Do you really think that a terrorist attack on a legitimate military target would instill the kind of fear in the American people that has been necessary to the Bush Administration (Congress, et al.) assault on civil liberties and escalation of the global war for dominance?
9/11 struck fear into the hearts of Americans. It enabled the Administration (and cohorts) to demonize a whole religion. Remember: "you're either with us or your against us." "put up or shut up."
Well, no thank you! I am as patriotic as the next guy. But I bear no love for a government that tortures and spies and cheats and goes to war and kills in its corporatist pursuit of global dominance.
...although that is fairly condescending and snide comment.
I didn't see any vast change in the political weather after the Cole , so I'm not sure where you are going with the Maine angle, but...
I don't think our GOV (as a unified civil authority) planned anything, but I'm pretty sure that a radical element in our GOV has been involved in 9/11 from the beginning-
Massoud was killed the day before, and the questions outweigh the answers, so I feel the only [sic] "assinine" stance to take would be the one based on denial or a lack of curiosity-
-so please feel free to keep giving us permission to ask questions Gug =)
The evidence is hundreds of credible architects and engineers saying that there is no way those towers could have collapsed in the manner they did from commercial airliner impacts.
There are so many suspicious and fishy details surrounding the attack. We deserve a real investigation. The families and loved ones of those who were killed, especially, deserve a real investigation.
The towers were designed to pancake if there was structural compromise. You know what, it's not worth it, you just go on believin' man. They're all out to get you, everything is a conspiracy, everyone is a provocateur, no one can be trusted, better take your battery out of your cell phone if we're going to continue this conversation.
The towers were designed to pancake? I haven't heard of that. Will you please show me where I can substantiate that information?
And if it is true (about the "pancaking,") would the planes have been sufficient to compromise the structure?
Why did so many people hear explosions prior to the buildings collapse? Does mere ordinary structural collapse cause metal to liquify? (Or does it require a catalyst - and a fire much hotter than oxygen starved jet fuel can produce?) What caused Tower 7 to collapse? - These are just a few of the unanswered questions that lead people, perfectly sane and reasonable people like me, to ask for further investigations, so we can have the most definitive truth possible - so that we can put this horrendous event behind us and move on.
Unplug my cell phone? Are you serious? This is a free country isn't it? Do you think I should not be allowed to ask questions or to seek the truth?
By the way, there is a huge percentage of the population which does not believe the official stories about 9/11. I suppose you should also direct them to unplug their cell phone batteries.
I'd especially like to hear how Tower 7 was designed to pancake for no particular reason. Please channel the spirit of Occam to enlighten us poor conspiracy nutters!
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 10:05am.
if one is willing to use it. Anyway, some folks believe the video of the planes crashing into the towers is just CGI and that the passengers were "disappeared." Don't know if anyone has proven them wrong yet.
Truthers are not seeking the truth as much as they are seeking confirmation of their premise, that the government and its dark allies created 911 so they could take over the world. That's fine. Perhaps "911 Seekers" is a more accurate name. Seek away. But they’re probably looking in the wrong direction. The best Occum-proof conspiracy scenario is that the hijackers were on our payroll. No shadow squibs or other 1,000 slender threads of “proof” needed.
The confidence that our government could actually carry out such an extraordinarily elaborate piece of violent street theater in complete secrecy is astounding. Heck, it’s like something right out of the movies.
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 10:26am.
I think we need to agree on a premise before we tackle the question. Such as "for no discernible reason." The ontological nature of your premise is pretty stricking to me, and a non-starter. I'll bail out of this. Sorry for the offense.
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 10:21am.
in this conversation. At least this denial-prone, unquestioning dupe thinks so. Sorry for my part in it. Seems conspiracy conversations are dead ends unless you're speaking with someone you agree with [sic].
Added: Perhaps someone should change the title of this thread. It does appear to ask a question.
Actually he's somebody who has to deal with dyslexia, I know that because he's mentioned it on this blog before, so maybe it's not so nice for you to make fun of him for spelling words wrong.
Anyways, all this cyber-arguing is making me feel dumber, so I give up. Goodnight.
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hmmm
Submitted by FRESH on Wed, 09/24/2008 - 4:42pm.Can I bring my razor?
Please do!
Submitted by SMASH on Wed, 09/24/2008 - 7:29pm.The simplest explanation is that 9/11 was a controlled demolition: most likely, an inside job.
All the other stuff about magically indestructible passports, the laws of thermodynamics magically changing, Tower 7 magically falling down for no particular reason, etc... it's just a bunch of convoluted fairytales.
You're kidding, right?
Submitted by Laurian on Wed, 09/24/2008 - 8:16pm.Don't you think that's kind of rude?
Submitted by SMASH on Wed, 09/24/2008 - 11:16pm.I did not mean to be rude
Submitted by Laurian on Thu, 09/25/2008 - 5:57am.It was an honest question.
BTY, I have read the NIST report. I lack the engineering knowledge to say I fully comprehend all of it but it makes a lot more sense than demo crews sneaking in and rigging tons of explosives w/out anyone finding out.
Who blew up the World Trade Center?
Submitted by Laurian on Wed, 09/24/2008 - 5:59pm.To quote Kyle of South Park "A bunch of pissed off Muslims!"
It's healthy to ask questions, but the truth is a pair of 300,000lb 767 traveling at over 400 mph and carrying 42,000 gallons of jet fuel ignited infernos that brought the towers down.
Are there discrepancies in the details? For such an unprecedented event I'm surprised there aren't more but the basic narrative holds up. Was the horror used by the neo-cons to promote crass political agendas? Of course. Are 911 Truthers trying to do the same? Sadly, yes. Moving on.
9/11 Truth
Submitted by Bert on Wed, 09/24/2008 - 8:43pm.For example, the official theory does nothing to explain how 25 ton chunks of structural steel were ejected 500 feet out from the building as it collapsed (supposedly under its own weight with no help from explosives.)
The official story also doesn't do anything to explain thermate, that was found on collapses structural steel.
The official story doesn't explain molten metal found at the disaster site.
If you're a doubter, you owe it to yourself to pick up a copy of this film. You might be surprised.
Many experts agree that the free fall of the buildings can only be explained by controlled demolition.
Do you think that there are people who are nefarious enough to try something as insidious as a false flag attack in order to achieve political power?
I, personally, wouldn't put it past Cheney. It's very interesting to follow his history, and his footsteps leading up to, and after, the horrendous events of September 11th, 2001.
Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth
Why did Tower 7 collapse. Did it contain anything that anyone would be interested in hiding?
It's good to ask questions.
The official accounts do not answer all the questions. We need answers. We need the truth.
A job for the hardley boys?
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Thu, 09/25/2008 - 6:15am.>chuckle<
Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 09/25/2008 - 12:38pm....that so gave me a clue! =)
Thermite eh?
Submitted by Laurian on Wed, 09/24/2008 - 9:32pm.See the NIST report. Better yet, read it. Or that tool of imperialism Scientific American.
Oh never mind. Never let reason and evidence get in the way of a good conspiracy.
9/11 Truth Program on TCTV
Submitted by Bert on Wed, 09/24/2008 - 10:13pm.Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth
Submitted by Bert on Thu, 09/25/2008 - 1:00am.I have found the following information from Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth to be very compelling:
Here's the real question
Submitted by a.future.with.n... on Thu, 09/25/2008 - 1:16am.What does it matter? Assume the government did blow up the world trade center. What are you going to do about it? Vote different?
Do you really need an elaborate story to discredit the government anyway? Unless the 9/11 truth movement also advocates armed violent revolution I don't really see the point. So you can say "I told you so?" Seriously. What if they just came out and admitted it? What then?
Unless people are willing the challenge the real seat of power, than what good is speculating on conspiracies? If you are willing to challenge power, don't you think there's better issues to press than 9/11?
Accountability
Submitted by Bert on Thu, 09/25/2008 - 1:46am.I also tend to believe that the government, even as it exists in a state of overwhelm by influence of major corporations, still serves at varying levels (more so at state and local levels probably) as a protector against some of the more harsher abuses that a pure corporate state would evince.
I shudder to think of the world we would have if Corporations had free and unregulated reign over society.
Maybe I am wrong. Maybe the government does more harm than good. But at this point, with the way the biggest business corporations are pursuing an ends justify the means approach to the bottom line it seems that government is providing at least some base level protections against what might otherwise be the unmitigated onslaught of corporate power.
I have been wrong before. I wish that government and corporations would just decide to be nice and take care of people, plants, animals and planet. It's kind of scary.
I think that if those who may have conspired to demolish the WTC on 9/11 were to just come forward and admit the act - that it would cause a major panic - a major, and drastic, societal upheaval. That's probably a major factor in terms of why the official theories, and the official investigations, are so profoundly lacking in scope and detail.
It's about maintaining order. It's about maintaining an appearance of normality. If it was found that members of our own government participated in an attack against their own country, our own country... Well that would certainly take a chunk out of their argument for a global war on terror...(to say the least).
The difference that it would make is between the justification for a crusade for global dominance disguised as a global war on terror, and the reality of pulling back the curtain to expose and confront the wizard. Remember to follow the yellow brick road.
How many millions have been killed, how many millions more suffer - as a result of the desire of a relatively few individuals' desire for pure power and political dominance?
It's sick.
And we need the truth.
Haha..."vote different"
Submitted by SMASH on Thu, 09/25/2008 - 2:37am.violent revolution v. protective use of force
Submitted by Bert on Thu, 09/25/2008 - 9:37pm.I do not advocate violence. Though sometimes I do get angry and frustrated, I simply do not believe that violence will bring true solutions to the problems and conflicts of today's world.
However, the protective use of force (see Rosenberg video) is a different story. Like Marshall Rosenberg, I think the use of controlled and limited force can be quite legitimate if it is intended to prevent harm from occurring.
The Port Militarization Resistance Movement has been an effort toward just this type of protective use of force. PMR attempted to use force to blockade and physically obstruct the tools that are used for aggression as it is being committed by our own government. Quite simple really. I think, that if kept true, the message of PMR has potential to reach a broader sympathetic audience. That's why The Olympian always tried to portray the PMR actions as violent and destructive - when they were by and large nonviolent (yes, unfortunately with exceptions.)
I think the 9/11 Truth Movement has a similar basic intention of protection. The Movement seeks to protect innocent people from the harm that, it appears, powerful individuals are doing.
Did members of our own government, and/or citizens of the USA, conspire (with bin Laden) to perpetrate an attack against the one of the very central symbols of global economic activity, the WTC towers in NYC?
Like the other replier to your comment said, if it was proven beyond the shadow of reasonable doubt, and accepted officially, that the towers were taken down in a controlled demolition - it would demonstrate that a major cover-up has thus far occurred. Motive points to Cheney, global hegemonists et al..
What is required is cooperation from the official avenues of government however, to lend the investigation the necessary authority, and credibility that it will need in order to be presented to the American people. I need the truth. The people need the truth. We need it for healing.
ummmm... You can't handle the truth?
Submitted by a.future.with.n... on Tue, 09/30/2008 - 2:18am.I'm sorry, that was too easy.
I think thats a weak answer, we need it for "healing". You know what we really need for healing? Socialized health care. Also, it would be nice if housing would be viewed as a human right.
You want to know the funny part? I wouldn't put it past the government to do something like late, what with the history of mass sterilization, execution, torture et al. I just don't care. I think the whole 9/11 truth "movement" is just another neaner neaner attempt on the part of liberals who like to point fingers at the president.
Now I hate the president too, but he's just another idiot propping up a real big SYSTEM. That system is my enemy. I think finger pointing at GWB is just a bunch of anal retentive self righteousness. I really don't see what outcome you're going for. Total civil war? Direct armed struggle? I mean seriously, what do you think would happen if incontrovertible proof that the US government pulled off 9/11 surfaced, healing?
You just like talking about the bad things the bush administration has done and you use this blog as your primary sounding board as evidenced by the multiple blogs you post towing a party line everyday here.
I don't read most of them, but this one seemed, well, special. If you really want to expose 9/11 for what it is than get of your high horse and pick up a gun because a gap in faith that big brought about by a betrayal of that scale means a whole lot of people are going to die. This is the same government that blew up the twin towers, remember. What, do you think they'll go quietly into the night, say they're sorry and just let everyone start to get over it?
Be careful what path these shrill criticisms take you down. I think in this thread you have exposed a crack in your peacenik exterior.
p.s. pmr protective use of force
Submitted by Bert on Thu, 09/25/2008 - 9:42pm.It was sad and frustrating to see the harm that was done.
It is sad and frustrating to see the harm that has been done by members of the Bush Administration as they have taken advantage of the horrendous 9/11 attacks to pursue a private agenda of global domination.
I hope, for the sake of the survivors of the 9/11 tragedy, that these unanswered questions can be addressed and resolved.
This is what democracy looks like:
Submitted by FRESH on Thu, 09/25/2008 - 10:45am.Matt Taibbi's article on Congress with Bernie Sanders as a guide.
Oh Lordy, I thought this went the way of bigfoot by now.
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 09/25/2008 - 11:33am.Hey now, don't dismiss Bigfoot
Submitted by Laurian on Thu, 09/25/2008 - 1:49pm.I disagree.
Submitted by FRESH on Thu, 09/25/2008 - 10:27pm.MUST RESIST URGE TO DEBATE
Submitted by Laurian on Fri, 09/26/2008 - 7:24am.BIGFOOT VS 9/11 TRUTHERS.
SOMEONE WRONG ON INTERNETS.
HEAD HURT.HULK SMASH!
Wait: will_is_ok
and so am I.
Hey!
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Fri, 09/26/2008 - 8:42am.Yoda
Submitted by Laurian on Fri, 09/26/2008 - 8:52am.Sorry...
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Fri, 09/26/2008 - 8:56am.Aaaaargh!
Submitted by Laurian on Fri, 09/26/2008 - 9:23am.Oakville blobs
gravity anomaly on Johnson Point
Paul Ingram
WHO REALLY KILLED DAVID GEORGE!!!!
Disrespect
Submitted by Bert on Fri, 09/26/2008 - 9:27am.Hey Bert...
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Fri, 09/26/2008 - 9:39am.Conspiracy Theories
Submitted by Bert on Fri, 09/26/2008 - 12:45pm.There is credible and substantial evidence to suggest, and to justify further investigation and analysis (official and otherwise), that the towers were brought down in a controlled demolition. Now who would be sick enough to do such a thing? And why hasn't the official story addressed the evidence that suggests this obvious possibility.
It's not about conspiracy theories, per se. It's about credibility.
Comparing the 9/11 controlled demolition to some of the above mentioned "conspiracy theories" is an insult to all of the people, the workers, the first responders, the airline passengers, who died that day.
Bert
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Fri, 09/26/2008 - 1:26pm.Per usual, Bert
Submitted by FRESH on Fri, 09/26/2008 - 2:31pm.You can get upset and claim to be offended if you like, I can't help that. Just remember, before you respond, that I've probably spent more time than most researching 9/11 and ALL of the various "theories" surrounding it.
The "official" story has holes in it, sure, but nothing compared to the idea that three gigantic buildings were rigged with explosives from top to sub-basement with no one outside of the conspirators finding out and none of the conspirators leaking it. Think about the grand scale of the conspiracy that would have to take place and you'll see how impossible it sounds. We're talking thousands of people, from laborers to planners, a lot of them would have to be American so as not to arouse suspicion, conspiring to kill thousands of people, fellow countrymen, by knocking down three buildings two of which are among the tallest in the world and happen to be considered the economic capital of the world, and no one with any credibility or corroboration has come forward and said, "I helped wire the building with explosives, I can't take the guilt anymore and had to come clean." Not a single person. This conspiracy theory implodes on itself much like the towers did.
Bert you drank the kool aide
Submitted by Laurian on Fri, 09/26/2008 - 3:23pm.There is credible and substantial evidence to suggest, and to justify further investigation and analysis (official and otherwise), that the towers were brought down in a controlled demolition.
No there is not! The controlled demo theory is A FLAT OUT LIE!
It really is a waste of time for me to repute the Truther lies you have swallowed when others have already done so. Come on Bert, you're smarter than this.
hey
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Fri, 09/26/2008 - 3:30pm.It's not the questions that bug me
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 09/26/2008 - 4:03pm.Amen...
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Fri, 09/26/2008 - 10:46pm.pot, kettle, black
Submitted by SMASH on Fri, 09/26/2008 - 11:20pm.As if that isn't precisely what you've done, and continue doing here? Just look at this thread -- all of the ignoring and discrediting is coming from you, Laurian, FRESH, etc. It's like you can't even think about anything that might contradict the premise you cling so dearly to.
I say if you wanna buy the official story so badly, just freakin' buy it already, and let other people keep searching for the truth in peace.
What is truth exactly?
Submitted by FRESH on Fri, 09/26/2008 - 11:39pm.Good luck in your search, I promise to keep an open mind.
SMASH your premise is false as it is insulting
Submitted by Laurian on Sat, 09/27/2008 - 5:22am.I HAVE considered many of the alternatives to the NIST report including extra-terrestrial intervention and rejected them as wanting.
SMASH, do you subscribe to the theory of evolution? There are holes in the theory one could drive a truck through but despite some serious lack of detailed evidence, the theory best describes the evidence before us. Such is the NIST report. Like Creationism, (God did it all) Truthers begin with a conclusion (the US govnt is evil) then select the premises which support the desired conclusion.
I guess what drives me absolutely nuts about the Truther movement is that it is another example of the rise of secular mythology; Fundamentalism sans Deity. Belief without sound evidence is as dangerous as it is wrong.
So's yours
Submitted by SMASH on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 9:19am.It's funny you mention fundamentalism. In an earlier post I had compared anti-truthers (for want of a better name) to fundamentalists and the NIST report to the bible, but deleted it as too inflammatory. This isn't some random web forum, it's one full of my neighbors and I'd like to keep it civil.
I just wish you could see that you're doing exactly what you describe, and that you look just as much like a zealot.
The NIST report
Submitted by Laurian on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 11:42am.is the product of scientific process, the Bible is a collection of Semetic stories and laws. Comparing the two is exactly the kind of reductionist fundamentalism that leads Truthers believe in fairy tales.
Combo?
Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 09/25/2008 - 12:50pm....Massoud was killed the day before, and I'm pretty sure that what happened in New York was a "combo":
There are many questions, and our GOV just doesn't seem interested in "the truth" anymore-
-the confusion is so deep, that some folks don't trust the GOV anymore, and with the track record of the CIA and Pak.'s ISI involvement with Afghanistan and OBL, I'm not surprised if the 9/11 mess was part radical plot and part "jumps-start" for Bush's Jihad~
After what we have learned about Pearl Harbor and Vietnam, I have a hard time drinking the GOV's kool-aid on this one-
The military is the answer, but only for defense of our "homeland", and not for the occupation and expense of foreign service for "allies".
If need be, sell American expertise to the highest bidder, but please stop exhorting US tax-payers for what amounts to costly "wargames".
You-all just gotta read "Ghost War"
Pearl Harbor cover up and alleged Gulf of Tonkin fabrication
Submitted by FRESH on Thu, 09/25/2008 - 1:45pm."Goat yogurt prolongs life: I heard that a man in a mountain village who ate only yogurt lived to 120."
Controlled demolition is an assinine conclusion
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 09/26/2008 - 1:55pm.USS Maine?
Submitted by Bert on Sun, 09/28/2008 - 9:52pm.9/11 struck fear into the hearts of Americans. It enabled the Administration (and cohorts) to demonize a whole religion. Remember: "you're either with us or your against us." "put up or shut up."
Well, no thank you! I am as patriotic as the next guy. But I bear no love for a government that tortures and spies and cheats and goes to war and kills in its corporatist pursuit of global dominance.
bert
thanks for your permission Gug...
Submitted by chad360 on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 9:43am....although that is fairly condescending and snide comment.
I didn't see any vast change in the political weather after the Cole , so I'm not sure where you are going with the Maine angle, but...
I don't think our GOV (as a unified civil authority) planned anything, but I'm pretty sure that a radical element in our GOV has been involved in 9/11 from the beginning-
Massoud was killed the day before, and the questions outweigh the answers, so I feel the only [sic] "assinine" stance to take would be the one based on denial or a lack of curiosity-
-so please feel free to keep giving us permission to ask questions Gug =)
Evidence
Submitted by Bert on Sun, 09/28/2008 - 8:18pm.The evidence is hundreds of credible architects and engineers saying that there is no way those towers could have collapsed in the manner they did from commercial airliner impacts.
There are so many suspicious and fishy details surrounding the attack. We deserve a real investigation. The families and loved ones of those who were killed, especially, deserve a real investigation.
That's all.
Not true, sir.
Submitted by FRESH on Sun, 09/28/2008 - 9:25pm.The Truth
Submitted by Bert on Sun, 09/28/2008 - 9:58pm.And if it is true (about the "pancaking,") would the planes have been sufficient to compromise the structure?
Why did so many people hear explosions prior to the buildings collapse? Does mere ordinary structural collapse cause metal to liquify? (Or does it require a catalyst - and a fire much hotter than oxygen starved jet fuel can produce?) What caused Tower 7 to collapse? - These are just a few of the unanswered questions that lead people, perfectly sane and reasonable people like me, to ask for further investigations, so we can have the most definitive truth possible - so that we can put this horrendous event behind us and move on.
Unplug my cell phone? Are you serious? This is a free country isn't it? Do you think I should not be allowed to ask questions or to seek the truth?
By the way, there is a huge percentage of the population which does not believe the official stories about 9/11. I suppose you should also direct them to unplug their cell phone batteries.
Huge percentage.
Submitted by FRESH on Sun, 09/28/2008 - 10:42pm.Do tell!
Submitted by SMASH on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 9:31am.The Spirit of Occam resolves this matter very quickly
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 10:05am.if one is willing to use it. Anyway, some folks believe the video of the planes crashing into the towers is just CGI and that the passengers were "disappeared." Don't know if anyone has proven them wrong yet.
Truthers are not seeking the truth as much as they are seeking confirmation of their premise, that the government and its dark allies created 911 so they could take over the world. That's fine. Perhaps "911 Seekers" is a more accurate name. Seek away. But they’re probably looking in the wrong direction. The best Occum-proof conspiracy scenario is that the hijackers were on our payroll. No shadow squibs or other 1,000 slender threads of “proof” needed.
The confidence that our government could actually carry out such an extraordinarily elaborate piece of violent street theater in complete secrecy is astounding. Heck, it’s like something right out of the movies.
Occam Says
Submitted by SMASH on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 10:20am.What does Spirit of Occam say about Tower 7 falling to the ground for no discernible reason? Conspiracy-addled minds want to know...
Maybe it was termites?
As my last post implied
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 10:26am.No one has a monopoly on "condensending and snide"
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 10:21am.in this conversation. At least this denial-prone, unquestioning dupe thinks so. Sorry for my part in it. Seems conspiracy conversations are dead ends unless you're speaking with someone you agree with [sic].
Added: Perhaps someone should change the title of this thread. It does appear to ask a question.
suck it
Submitted by chad360 on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 5:49pm.Gug, you fired the first round when you went so far as to use the term [sic] "assinine"...
...please observe the boundary b4 you cry foul...
> conversation lasts until someone insults someone else <
suck it? Really? That's how adults talk in your house?
Submitted by FRESH on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 5:56pm.Maybe we should all take a collective step back.
read into?
Submitted by chad360 on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 9:53pm.FRESH, thanks for being a voice of moderation and all, but I don't read anything into what Gug says...
...he spells it out and is very clear.
He just can't spell asinine =)
um,
Submitted by FRESH on Mon, 09/29/2008 - 10:43pm.Anyways, all this cyber-arguing is making me feel dumber, so I give up. Goodnight.