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Submitted by security_six on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 9:28pm.
It has been suggested, hinted at and generally stated, but not proven that the OPD engages in systematic and deliberate oppression and persecution of minorites and GLT people. I would propose finding a way to identify these miscreant officers and hold the OPD accountable for these illegal and unjust actions. If true. How do we do this?
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I agree!!
Submitted by JT on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 9:35pm.In another post Rob R. makes claims of oppression, yet no facts to support. This is not the first time he has made such claims with no facts. Why is it he can make such claims, but no call for him to back up his allegations?
If these people are really experiencing these acts, I'm confident the I/A Lt. will be happy to take their complaints.
No matter if the science is all phony, there are collateral environmental benefits. Climate change provides the greatest chance to bring about justice and equality in the world ever.Christine Stewart (the real basis for the AGW scare)
I'm not sure who replaced Lt. Wilson
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 9:39pm.in the Office of Professional Accountability, but if his replacement is as good, then you will get a fair sounding out, decent treatment and proper followup with solutions discussed and proposed. Despite recent acts, I am postive the OPD is working to ensure that events will not repeat themselves. Given the serious nature of the subject I have retained the services of an attorney, but feel I could resolve issues without it.
I am willing to testify to reasonable treatment, not always from officers on the street but to those running the show. In fact my beef is really only with one officer, and when I encountered him in another place we talked, bs'd and shook hands.
If anyone fears the OPD, I'll be happy to refer my attorney to them, or even come along for the ride and sit as a witness.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
Just curioius JT
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 10:24am.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
I would think that step
Submitted by Jeff Brigham on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 10:03pm.I would think that step number one should be to file a complaint with the city. Just by going to the Olympia City website I managed to find the method to file a complaint.
See http://www.olympiawa.gov/citygovernment/forms/complimentcomplaints/
See here for the form.
Jeff Brigham
This thread seems borderline...
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 10:45pm....abusive to me. What is the rate of under-reporting for rape? Would y'all really be clamoring for "proof" that someones anecdotal reports of rape were true?
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
I think anyone
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 10:55pm.Who has a crime committed against them or believe one has been committed should report it to the proper authorities.
Yes, I want firm hard statistics about crime, not vagueries. Vagueness does not help.
Are you familiar with Deprivation of Rights Under Color of Law? It is a federal offense and can among other things can allow a person to seek civil damages from the officer involved. IIRC, I pointed it out to the OPD last time I was troubled by them. I think my attorney is also reminding them of it. Also 42 USC 1983 provides for civil penalties in the case of deprivation of rights.
How is this thread borderline abusive? Some very serious allegations were made, which undermines confidence in our city government and law enforcement. More damning is that no officers were named, placing the entire OPD under suspicion. Such serious allegations demand a "put up or shut up" stance otherwise the end result is to sow seeds of discord and mistrust. If you think this thread is abusive, shut it down, but be assured it will keep coming back.
I think some in the community want to know. Who are these dangerous officers? What do they do? Why does the City of Olympia and the OPD tolerate these actions? Maybe The Olympian could do an investigative report, maybe we could get television news reporting on it as well.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
Put up or shut up.
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 11:00pm.That's the right approach with crime victims. Maybe a rubber hose would really get the information flowing.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Okay....
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 11:03pm.I was refering to the constant unfounded claims here. Prove the outrageous claims of crime in some fashion or quit refering to them. As usual, you missed my entire point.
Rob made claims against unknown officers that carry Federal charges and are a Federal crime. These are serious allegations. Put up or shut up. At least name the officers involved with these criminal acts.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
I forget, but did you name you persecutors
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 11:07pm.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
Yup
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 11:10pm.Houser lead the first stop, aided by Schaeffer and a third officer who's name I do not have. Houser was ignorant of the law but professional and reasonable. Second stop lead by O'Neill, Beckwell had his weapon drawn, and Schaeffer again was a backup officer.
Wouldn't use the word persecutors though.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
"Wouldn't use the word persecutors though."
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 11:26pm.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
Can't hurt squat
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 11:37pm.In each case the law was violated. Persecution has to show a regular pattern specifically targeting. In each case the unlawful detainment and disarming was done because a citizen made a complaint.
At any rate the tack my attorney is taking has to do with firm solid legal principles and law, not vagueness like "persecution"
OPD screwed the pooch twice. Unlawful disarming, violation of consitutional privacy protections, violation of probable case as laid out in Terry, deprivation of rights under color of law, etc...
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
Let's just drop it, OK?
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 11:16pm.I will drop this if
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 11:28pm.You do not make unfounded allegations again about the OPD and claim they engage in a regular persecution of minorities. Those are very serious charges you are leveling and if it will not be backed up it should not be brought up. Kinda like pointing an unloaded gun at someone with the action open. Why bother?
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
Do you have a job where they pay you for every gun reference?
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 11:39pm.Same one that pays you
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 11:40pm.For every reference to persecuted and oppressed minorities and peoples in this country.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
I know, I'm such a jerk!
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 11:43pm.And I am a
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 11:44pm.rabid crazy like Quint, such is life... Next time I'll find a different analogy that will suit you better.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
Easy there kiddo
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 11:44pm.nt
Rick,I do not see this
Submitted by Jeff Brigham on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 11:09pm.Rick,
I do not see this thread as being abusive. Six and JT have brought up some good points. And in response to "anecdotal reports" of any crime, one of my questions will be "Was it reported to the police?"
Thanks,
Jeff Brigham
It seems insensitive to me.
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 11:14pm.There are classes of crimes that go under-reported. Mostly they occur with people who lack access or power in the system, e.g., minorities, women, homeless. I would have thought the right approach, instead of banging fists on the table and demanding "proof," would be to open up the conversation a little and find out more information.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
First it helps
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 11:24pm.Only if you believe in this "lacks power in the system" BS
I tried to find out more info and was stonewalled at every turn. It's easy to make serious, damning allegations without proof. It is not my fault peole lack enough confidence in themselves to stand up for their rights and responsibilities in society and fight for themselves.
However I will not condone daming an entire city and city agency with such allegations without even a shred of offered proof or evidence.
It is easy to say "cops always do this or that" and not provide a shred of proof, to pass on anecdotal stories, and hearsay. Any person with a grudge or agenda can do that. If a person really cared about the crimes committed however....
I would be the first to demand an investigation into this illegal activity. if there was proof of a regular pattern as has been alleged.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
I think maybe it might be educational...
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 11:44pm....for you to hang out at BRAC for a while -- do some volunteer work. You might just hear some stories from people who lack power in the system.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Charming
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 11:47pm.You want to pay my lost wages or work on my boat while I'm away?
I have heard those sort of tales plenty of time, and have given the same answer each and everytime. A phone number to the FBI field office, a list of legal advocates for the poor and a polite but firm statement that if you don't stand up for your rights, how can you expect anyone else to.
Besides, BRAC wouldn't want me in. I carry an evil you know what. Even hidden.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
Ya know
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 11:55pm.About 8 years ago right after my divorce I found myself homeless in Seattle and in a shelter. Not happy times let me tell you. I had a job though, so it was a matter of saving up a couple of weeks wages to get a cheap room and work my way back up from there.
I found a self maintaining sense of failure and powerlessness. You get around enough people who believe they lack power because of their social status they all start believing in it. It is an evil and vicious cycle that feeds on itself.
I got real tired of listening to people saying how they could never get a leg up, or how horrible cops were or whatever. Funny thing is these able bodied people had plenty of time to go from charity to charity but never to an employment office or temp agency.
Not to say all homeless are like that, but there are enough in the system that clog things down.
I believe most people who feel weak in the system have allowed themselves to become socially conditioned and programmed to believe they are a certain way.
The trick is deprogramming them.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
If a woman reports a rape
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 8:50am.If a woman, or some guy on behalf of anonymous women, makes a claim that the teachers at Evergreen coerce their female students into sex, threatening their tuition, degree, housing, etc., and put that claim on a public forum wouldn't you expect a degree of proof?
“I said it in Hebrew—I said it in Dutch—I said it in German and Greek: But I wholly forgot (and it vexes me much) That English is what you speak!”
The Hunting of the Snark
Merwyn,
Submitted by Rick on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 9:06am....you can spin any tale you like. The fact is, rape, along with some other crimes, is under-reported. (Clever, though, how you worked in the personal angle about the Evergreen professor -- real classy stuff, that.)
As you no doubt have observed, I've been openly critical of those who preach "fire all the cops," and "honk if you hate cops," so you can take the big ol' chip off your shoulder and stop the huffing and puffing.
The folks on this thread think it is some kind of affront to the honor of the OPD that someone might have claims against the department that haven't been reported. I have no trouble believing that abuses by police of minorities and homeless fall into this same category, for exactly the same reason that rape goes under-reported.
Maybe you, and the others on this thread, should ask yourself why you have a hard time believing this. In fact, S6 admitted that he'd heard the same claims. Do people make this up to be funny? Or, is it possible that, as will any large institution that deals with the public, there are quality control issues?
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
It's no less classy or
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 9:12am.I don't think people make it up to be funny. I think they make it up to be assholes.
“I urge people not to cooperate with police”
Peter Bohmer, classy Evergreen Professor
Interesting what memory can do, no?
Submitted by Rick on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 9:16am.What I heard Rob say what that he knew of particular people who had had frequent negative interactions with the OPD. I didn't hear him say that the OPD was a "racist, homophobic institute." Are you sure that's what he said?
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
If he's claiming (or
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 9:19am.“I urge people not to cooperate with police”
Peter Bohmer, Evergreen Professor
Really?
Submitted by Rick on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 9:36am.Are you sure that isn't what you're saying? There are a lot of situations that are compatible with what Rob said that don't include the OPD being a "racist, homophobic institute." For example, it might be the case that there are some folks who aren't cut out to be law enforcement officers.
You are free to go beyond what Rob is saying, but you really shouldn't attribute it to him if you do. Also, I don't understand the motivation to amplify Rob's comments, instead of assuming good faith in communication and focusing in on the part that is true.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Nowhere in his talk did he
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 9:51am.I'd love to focus on just the truth, regardless of what that turns out to be. Unfortunately, due to a lack of specifics, we're all left with Quid est veritas?
“I urge people not to cooperate with police”
Peter Bohmer, Evergreen Professor
Well...
Submitted by Rick on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 12:06pm....when you hear something that clashes with your reality, you have options: you can get indignant or you can get curious. By getting curious, you're much more likely to get closer to the truth. If you get indignant, you're likely to get further away.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Fair enough. Remember,
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 12:07pm.“I urge people not to cooperate with police”
Peter Bohmer, Evergreen Professor
Rick,
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 9:45pm.I've heard all sorts of unsubstaniated claims against police. Dig deeper and they often don't hold much water. Just a bored or borderline mental case pissing and moaning because they got rousted off a park bench, or were stopped three times in a row for driving a car with a broken taillight, or whatnot. Rather than take responsibilities for their actions they place the oppression card.
Not to say there aren't true cases, but they get drowned out by the bs artists. That it is why it is so very important to document, and follow up on those cases, otherwise they have no value and are meaningless.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
This has obviously exploded
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 11:46pm.Chocolate cake donuts and sweet tea?
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 11:48pm.Dang I know what I'm buying tomorow morning now...
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
I've been following the
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 3:04am.I've been following the allegation that members of the Olympia Police Department are engaged in actively targeting racial minorities and those in the Gay, Lesbian and Transgender community.
While I disagree with this point of view, I don't discredit Rob Richards and hardly doubt he's "making stuff up."
This doesn't mean that I don't believe the people relaying the stories to Rob are mistaken, leaving out details (growing up as a teenager I noticed many people have a tendency to leave details out when talking about encounters with the police), exaggerating or even fabricating, but I trust the source of the information that stories of encounters are in fact circulating.
I agree with S6, JT and Jeff Brigham the overwhelming majority of the time but I do divert a bit on the methodology used in discussion.
Now, I do think JT is right to be a little more upfront in asking which specific officers these allegations are directed toward and the circumstances surrounding the encounters, but if Rob doesn't want to go into it for fear that he would be "outing" an individual, he has that right.
With that said, I'd certainly encourage Rob to speak to these individuals about filing a complaint with the Department and making their story public - be it here, The Olympian or a city council meeting.
It's a pretty serious allegation against an entire department. One that the public should be afforded the opportunity to determine whether or not they feel the same way.
This is a pattern of abuse of
Submitted by JT on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 5:34am.OPD by Rob R. He throws out wild allegations, then hides behind the claim he doesn't want to out the people who have confided in him. I believe Rob R.s claims are at best overblown, and likely pure fantasy.
No matter if the science is all phony, there are collateral environmental benefits. Climate change provides the greatest chance to bring about justice and equality in the world ever.Christine Stewart (the real basis for the AGW scare)
I believe Rob R.s claims are
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 5:58am.I agree, but that's why I think the information should be put into the open, so the reader can decide.
As it stands right now, those who feel they have been wronged by law enforcement in the past (or that the system is designed a certain way) are going to be convinced of one claim while those whose past experience differs will be convinced of another.
In short, the "truth" about the allegation is going to be determined by our personal histories.
Again, I think Rob R. is making the claims on behalf of other people. I don't believe he has stated whether he believes officers at OPD are actively and deliberately targeting certain members of the general public.
Given my past history
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 9:47pm.With OPD and the San Diego Harbor Police, I am very willing to listen to complaints about police, I'm trying to see this with an open mind, but am still getting static.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
I agree TFI
Submitted by JT on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 7:10am.in fact I have no reason to believe that Rob is doing the fabricating. But Rob shouldn't regurgitate the info without verifying it. Otherwise it is rumor mongering at its best.
No matter if the science is all phony, there are collateral environmental benefits. Climate change provides the greatest chance to bring about justice and equality in the world ever.Christine Stewart (the real basis for the AGW scare)
Merwyn,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 1:34pm.I thought maybe my examples would aid in the discussion, perhaps it's my fault, I should have presented them in a more palatable way. Mea culpa.
Please accept my apologies.
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 1:37pm.“I urge people not to cooperate with police”
Peter Bohmer, Evergreen Professor