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Submitted by Rick on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 8:35pm.
This series of comments from emmettoconnell's post seems like it might constitute something like a "good idea". Anybody think of a reason why this wouldn't rock for downtown? Thank you...Submitted by MAF54 on Sat, 10/07/2006 - 2:43pm.Thanks for uploading this! I had to work late and couldnt go to that meeting.. The compassion displayed in this great town always makes me feel very humble.. Maybe a public shower / police station could kill two birds with one stone... Rolling them both into one facility could save money too..
huhSubmitted by enpen on Sat, 10/07/2006 - 3:31pm.My partner and I were just discussing that idea/possibility yesterday. It seems to make a lot of sense for several reasons: it would seemingly decrease the dangers/risks of 24 hour public showers, it would be a great public service/good will gesture and it would put locals (regardless of income bracket) in regular human-to-human contact with the OPD (not just cop & perp).
I think the 24 hour part is the key...Submitted by MAF54 on Sat, 10/07/2006 - 4:37pm.I think the 24 hour part is the key.. A very well lit, clean facility.. Support services on site.. I really do think OPD could pull something like this off.. I mean, there are a ton of homeless in and around Oly (I know first hand..).. But I dont think that there are so many that we cant be preemtive with something like this..
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Rock the vote
Submitted by Sarah on Mon, 10/09/2006 - 9:13pm.Excellent idea
Submitted by Crusty on Tue, 10/10/2006 - 2:56am.Hugs, Christie
good reason not to...
Submitted by Raina on Tue, 10/10/2006 - 12:51pm.First I have to say that I am unclear on whether this was a proposal that city administration folks brought up or whether it was an idea thought up by bloggers,
My concern is that it is not something that should be decided by bloggers and city officials, but by those who will be using the facilities...
a lot of houseless people dont appreciate cops and they have good reason too because they are often harrassed on a daily basis. it is not necessarily the police themselves that are despised, but what they stand for and what they are capable of. it would probably be disliked by the homeless community although, they would go anyways because who doesnt like to shower? there would be strict unneccessary rules and i doubt we would see people playing music out front. i am betting on strict come in, shower, leave, no loitering laws. YOU KNOW HOW GOVERNMENTS ARE!!
having the showers in the police station just doesnt make sense to me. as though homeless people are always committing crimes and cannot shower under their own or someone else who runs the building where the showers could be's supervision. as if they are children in need of authority while bathing, that seems demeaning. it is.
so can someone explain to me, because i missed something, why it was a good idea to combine the showers with the police station??
Well,
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 10/10/2006 - 1:20pm.I think the idea would be to do something different. If the relations between cops and the houseless could change, it might be through a shared goal: getting people access to the kinds of services that would help get them back into a house/job/family/etc. I saw one advantage of having shower and cops combined is that people's stuff would be secure while they were cleaning up.
I think you ask some good questions, but is it useful to assume that the city can do no good and that nothing can change?
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
Hey Raina
Submitted by MAF54 on Tue, 10/10/2006 - 1:23pm.Im formerly homeless as well.
I think Rick is doing a good job explaining "why.."
Peace..
Hmmm...
Submitted by Phil Owen on Wed, 10/11/2006 - 6:29pm.I think showers are a good idea, and I think trying to foster dialogue between the homeless and the police is a GREAT idea. I'm not sure that combining the two is a very good idea, though.
You see, I think it would result in a lot of very smelly people with warrants and a lot of very smelly paranoid schizophrenics. And then, because so many people would think it a bad idea to serve people with warrants anyway, there would be a tremendous stigma developing around people who smell bad. And that would not just include people on the lam, but also the schizophrenics. And we wouldn't want to contribute to the stigma against schizophrenics, would we?
So no shower for the good homeless?
Submitted by bubbaz (not verified) on Wed, 10/11/2006 - 7:32pm.Because a minority of them have warrants and/or are crazy?
I dont follow this argument..
I also dont view OPD as some shadowy organization (i know you aint saying this Phil, im just my own tangent..)
Its *my* police unit..
Us good folks of OLY pay the city to have a police force..
And ill be the first to say that OPD does an excellent job, and would do so with something like this as well.
(i have seen *real* bad police before, and OPD aint even close to none of that..)
I also feel that OPD does a great job at representing (and respecting) the unique values of our fine community.
I have no doubt they could pull this off.
So could be a good idea, but
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 10/11/2006 - 7:35pm.Thats what im trying to avoid..
Submitted by bubbaz (not verified) on Wed, 10/11/2006 - 7:45pm.At some point we have to stop talking about societal ills and actually try and *do* something about it.
I know first hand how hard it is to find work, for example, when you arent clean, have dirty clothes, no phone, and no storage space to keep your stuff while your out looking for work.
Not to mention the alienation..
So why not try something new...
I also dont buy the warrant argument..
Submitted by bubbaz (not verified) on Wed, 10/11/2006 - 7:53pm.In 11 years of dedicated street activism in the Puget Sound area, I have been checked for warrants like twice.
OPD would not be interogating everyone taking a damn shower..
Real life dont werk like that...
Not in this hood anyway...
That's the way I see it
Submitted by Mike on Wed, 10/11/2006 - 8:01pm.I am thinking of a showering space, but we might need a separate, but equal loitering area.
How many of these functions we are discussing already exist at the Columbia Center?
Actually it does...
Submitted by Phil Owen on Wed, 10/11/2006 - 8:04pm.Olycop: Could you honestly say that, if this thing was built, and if you were walking to your office and chanced upon a guy going for a shower that you KNEW had a warrant, you wouldn't stop him? I mean, it doesn't make you bad, but it IS your job, right?
MAF54 = bubbaz
Submitted by bubbaz (not verified) on Wed, 10/11/2006 - 8:28pm.+1 Mike on the loitering area
Submitted by bubbaz (not verified) on Wed, 10/11/2006 - 8:32pm.Specialy since familys make up a sizable number of homeless.
(maybe even a day care scenario?...)
Wouldnt that be fun...
24/7 of course...
Submitted by bubbaz (not verified) on Wed, 10/11/2006 - 8:35pm.Its the key to this whole thing..........(thnx Enpen..)
City Council Ideas...
Submitted by bubbaz (not verified) on Mon, 11/27/2006 - 2:48pm."He (Hyer) disagreed with people at the meeting who said the city wasn't addressing the homeless issue and enforcing laws already on the books to address bad behavior. He said the council is studying the need for a day center for homeless and law enforcement..."
Anyone else catch this?
Lets talk solutions...
Haven't yet heard anything
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 11/27/2006 - 11:23pm.i wonder how they came up with that particular idea?
Submitted by bubbaz (not verified) on Tue, 11/28/2006 - 12:07am.hmmmm...
You'd think there would at
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 11/28/2006 - 12:55am.While Joe Hyer was very
Submitted by Jade on Thu, 11/30/2006 - 10:46pm.I know this is gossip, but what are blogs for, after all? We can talk about whatever we want. Nothing is off the record for a citizen journalist/wingnut.
Jade
Make sure you clear the cache Joe..
Submitted by bubbaz (not verified) on Thu, 11/30/2006 - 11:31pm.It makes him feel dirty to read Olyblog..
Ill bet it has something to do with avocatos..
he doesn't read Olyblog
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Fri, 12/01/2006 - 7:46am.I'd actually be kind of curious to know why it's for wingnuts. It's no different than the average discussion in a college lecture and comes at a fraction of the cost.
PFfttt
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 12/01/2006 - 11:38am.such stereotypes, I can't believe he would say something like that, how rude.
Sgt. Norm, Wingnut-first class
NCOIC 3rd Wingnut brigade
"Go Wingnuts"
interesting...
Submitted by Crenshaw Sepulveda on Tue, 10/10/2006 - 1:41pm.While I find it doubtful that a police station would want to be responsible for a public shower, it really makes for a good outreach for the police. Same for the regular users of the showers. People that see each other on a regular basis start to care for each other. I see it on the bus with regular riders and drivers. I see it when I go get a cup of coffee at a particular place. I know that some people might be suspicious of regular contact with police. But what is the alternative? One can remain stinky and without good relationships with the police or one can be nice and clean and know that at least some of the police really do have respect for them. It is a gamble, to be sure, but one worth taking. The nazi camp metaphors might come to some peoples minds, but I think this concept has merit.
As a society we have to sometimes take chances in order to go some good. The cop shop/ public shower would do some good. Everyone will have to make it work to be a success, but I think it has a shot. The police might not even have to manage it, it could possibly managed by volunteers, hopefully some of the volunteers coming from the ranks of the homeless. More than ever, we have to go out on a limb with new and creative ideas for dealing with issues like homelessness. Some of the old tried and true things (long out of use) need also be explored. We have to keep looking at making things work instead of exporting our "problems" or sweeping them under the rug. In this way we will have the Olympia that everyone wants.
"I would make it impossible for the covetous and avaricious to utterly impoverish the poor. The rich can take care of themselves."
^@^
alot has been said
Submitted by enpen on Tue, 10/10/2006 - 4:29pm.My more pessimistic side leads me to believe that most folks who do oppose public showers use the safety issue to disguise their real motive: keep the homeless out. In that respect, I'd like to provide them with an answer that addresses the safety issue if only so that we can out the issue, so to speak.
"If you are a dreamer, come in. If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, a hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer. If you're a pretender, come sit by my fire, for we have some flax-golden tales to spin. Come in! Come in!"
There seems to be no
Submitted by Mike on Wed, 10/11/2006 - 6:59am.The recipients of government functions are not always immediately and directly involved in the planning of delivery of government services. I know the wandering population would like to have political clout and input, but I don't know how that happens. Are they organized, collectivized in a way that gives them political power? Are they registered to vote? Do they vote?
Bread and Roses may be the answer to the question regarding collective organization. To the extent that B&R would be involved in this kind of discussion and planning, that may be the way you seek.
We're working on it Mike.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 10/11/2006 - 9:29am.a collective
Submitted by enpen on Wed, 10/11/2006 - 9:40am."If you are a dreamer, come in. If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, a hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer. If you're a pretender, come sit by my fire, for we have some flax-golden tales to spin. Come in! Come in!"
Excellent! I don't see a
Submitted by Mike on Wed, 10/11/2006 - 7:38pm.B&R is awsome..
Submitted by bubbaz (not verified) on Wed, 10/11/2006 - 10:46pm.They would no doubt play a (big) role..
The only thing I worry about is that when stuff like this gets left strictly to the "non-profit sector" there are usually big gaps in funding.
One of the great things about the bundleing of the services (shower/cop) is that funding will not be an issue..
The money will be there...period.
So thats one less thing to worry about.
Bubbaz, I'm one of the
Submitted by Phil Owen on Sat, 10/14/2006 - 1:09pm.You are right that a project like this would be far easier to fund if it were joined to a police station, which would be nice. However, I'm tellin ya, if you were to get a bunch of people together from the streets all in one room and asked them what they thought of this, a lot of them would tell you they wouldn't use it. You can just about see the hairs going up on everyone's necks when the police get close to the B&R house. And people get real agitated when the cops come inside. The police represent a real threat in the minds of so many of the homeless.
Just my two cents.
(BTW, the Urban Layers Project has a great interest in creating a hygiene center, and has some brilliant ideas for partnering local businesses with social services and housing. You might ask Meta about it.)
My Experience Storming Men's Rooms
Submitted by Crusty on Tue, 10/10/2006 - 6:01pm.I used to time my boys and ask if it was number 1 or number 2. They knew I meant business too. I'd stand by the door and look mean and observe all comers and goers. And if a child didn't come out I'd yell through the door to them. Beyond that, hey it was hide the weiners fellas, because a woman is coming in. They usually covered up or some terror stricken man checked for me. I tried not to look.
But we need to think of the harm that can come to people as well as stigma. Basic safety concerns. I actually favor co-ed bathrooms and single units for this reason, instead of all two holers and three holers that are unsecured. And what about chemical toilets? And outdoor showers? I personally take my dog in the bathroom with me down at the lake. She hates that loud flushing by the way. Closed rooms and closed places are good places to commit crimes. I'd rather hold my nose and use an outhouse myself.
I am a rather suspicious sort from my days wandering cities. I look at the size of the feet under stalls, just observationally, as I choose a little potty place. It may not be a clue as to gender but it sure is as to size of the person. And I personally think urinals are a rediculous idea. Why not have everyone have stalls so mothers don't feel so uncomfortable walking in men's rooms?
As to showers, if not the police station, why not get another facility for homeless people similar to Bread and Roses that has showers and laundry facilities or expand the mission and funding for Bread and Roses? It helps people attend to basic needs in a warm and comfortable and homelike environment as opposed to feeling so supervised. That are a lot of possible angles to addressing this problem.
Hugs, Christie
I haven't stormed a men's room in years so if you see me in one, please realize I probably didn't check the signs. My sons are 6'5 and 6'4 now and I don't worry about protecting them anymore. Hahaha.
The design should
Submitted by Mike on Wed, 10/11/2006 - 7:51pm.Personally, I don't like chemical toilets and outhouses much. And I think urinals make some sense because the urine splash issue for men is obnoxious and it's a challenge and a little disgusting cleaning around toilets for that reason. But, with a concrete or ceramic floor and drains, a mop and bucket is pretty effective.
Long Beach has their public bathrooms (no showers) right next door to a police substation. It's well lit and in a very public area, I have never seen that particular space as a crime problem. No showers, though. They are accommodating the weekend visitor/tourist foot traffic as opposed to a somewhat stable population of folks without homes which is what we are thinking about. The dynamics are different, but the pairing of police function and public facilities is an idea whose time has come and will work with varied populations.
Lockers
Submitted by Sarah on Tue, 10/10/2006 - 9:08pm.Poeple would have a safe place to stash their stuff, lockers would be useful for so many of us in all sorts of situations.
I really like what Crenshaw said above....
Submitted by bubbaz (not verified) on Wed, 10/11/2006 - 9:51am.It is good,
Sincerely,
Adding to what has already
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 10/11/2006 - 10:10am.Adding to what has already been said, nobody in their right mind with a warrant is going to use a public shower that is part of the police station.
There are other ways that we
Submitted by Jade on Sat, 10/14/2006 - 12:45pm.It is simply not workable to have showers in the police station. Some may feel that the homeless need to overcome their attitudes about police, and you may be right, but it simply will not happen by trying to force homeless people to be naked and vulnerable at the cop shop. It will not.
First of all, the showers will probably not be used by those they are intended for, and we'll have another situation like the Salvation Army on our hands: poorly planned and implemented social services that go unused and are then used as justification to not expand services. It is a very poor use of our city money to continue funding arrogant charities who's main function is to make a point. (if you want a bed to sleep in, you'll do it our way...)I think its time that instead of saying how social services SHOULD work, we start listening to the consumers about what actually does work to resolve the issues we are all concerned about.
When it comes to police/homeless relationships, there is much room for improvement. It would be wonderful if the homeless in this town viewed the police as a resource for safety, and if the police viewed the homeless as citizens worth protecting. I think if this shift is to happen, it will have to begin on the police's end of things. The police should adopt a non-discrimination policy towards the homeless, and repeat problem officers should be terminated. It would be great if when these changes started to happen, we could get officers and homeless people in a room together to discuss how to resolve crime and poverty issues alike. This is yet another reason why we ought to have an independent citizen oversight committee for the OPD.
When it comes to shower supervision, we should look to an organization that already works. And when I say 'works', I mean an organization that actually serves and is trusted by the population they get money to serve. Bread and Roses is an example. The reason why they are hated by some people in town is because their office is always full. They get more people off the streets than any other program in town. You can look at their statistics- they are unparalleled.(And they do it with a lot less money, too.) But they have to work with the homeless in order for that to happen.
An organization with this kind of effectiveness is the most appropriate choice for further funding and expanded services.
WOW!
Submitted by OlyCop on Sun, 10/15/2006 - 10:12am.I was going to sit this thread out and just see how things went. And for the most part I liked the thought process. But then came this post....
"and many homeless people fear that an officer would beat them, steal their belongings, and leave them for dead at the first opportunity. This is not true of the majority of the police officers, but I have been in this town long enough to know that there actually are some bad cops out there who for some reason seem to get off on bullying homeless people. It seems that the OPD has trouble getting rid of these problem officers, so we hear the same names connected with police misconduct year after year, and the homeless continue to fear and hate anyone in a uniform."
Jade, that is a huge inflammatory statement. I would like to see your factual data to support it.
You have claims of theft by officers, assault, and even attempted murder. Wild claims to say the least for even a large police agency like New York or LAPD. But in Oly, I don't think so.
And, what is your definition of bullying? Is it agressive police work? Because I can understand why some here would believe that is bullying.
What misconduct against the homeless are you speaking of?
If I made wild claims like this against, (you pick the liberal topic) you guys would be all over me like a dirty diaper, and rightfully so.
So if any of this has really happened to the homeless here in Oly, and you have names, I encourage you to name names, dates, times.
"The strongest reason to retain the right to keep and bear arms is to protect against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson.
What's your view on the proposal...
Submitted by Rick on Sun, 10/15/2006 - 10:49am....Jade's comment notwithstanding?
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
I can speak to that, Olycop...
Submitted by Phil Owen on Sun, 10/15/2006 - 12:39pm.There have been, however, a lot of behaviors on the part of a few particular officers that have greatly exacerbated the opinions among the homeless that police are not friends. Officers Bakala and Costello, in particular, (when they worked downtown together) were outlandishly unkind to the homeless. They actually used to come into our old soup kitchen and stare people down. They'd just walk up and down the aisles giving that cold stare at everyone (I'm sure you know the look I'm talking about with those two). On a couple occassions B&R staff approached them to ask if they could be of any assistance, and even to offer coffee. The staff met with the same cold stares, and the two officers wouldn't respond with words. Apparently their uniforms and their sidearms communicated enough for them.
When Jade spoke of "beating", "stealing", and "leaving for dead" in the comment above, she was not leveling accusations of particular behaviors. She was referring to the impression that many of the homeless have of police, namely the impression that the police would as soon abuse the homeless as say hi to them. This does not mean that police have necessarily abused the homeless; it DOES mean that the homeless have had experiences with the police that inspire fear in them.
I am grateful that Lt Heinz has been working downtown. I'm sure that I'd have some disagreements with him about a number of things, but he's a really great officer, and a thoughtful and kindhearted man. You must understand, though, that it would take a whole lot of Lt. Heinz'es to make up for one Bakala. Police officers carry all the power and force of the State with them, and when the behavior of one causes fear, it will take a whole lot to overcome that.
Overall
Submitted by OlyCop on Sun, 10/15/2006 - 11:13am.I like it in theory. I agree the homeless need a place to clean up, etc. And this community values providing this type of service for them so the "new" building would be a good place for it. There are issues not addressed here yet, i.e. security, maint. costs, etc.
As far as the warrant issue, well that's a sticky one. You see a warrant is signed by a judge, and we cops are COMMANDED to arrest etc. Who are lowly cops to decide different than a judge. But with that said, if we don't run them we don't know there is a warrant. ;)
"The strongest reason to retain the right to keep and bear arms is to protect against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson.
"But with that said, if we
Submitted by Phil Owen on Sun, 10/15/2006 - 12:47pm.I really, really appreciate your intention in saying this, Olycop. However, I would seriously be floored if I was to learn that you don't know who's got warrants on the street. I mean, I often know and it isn't my job to know, so I couldn't begin to believe that you wouldn't know who's got warrants and who doesn't. But maybe no-one else would know that you know, and a dude could still take a shower?
It would also be quite a relief to me if I could hear that all the other officers on the department share the sentiment you express above (in fact, I think I'd crack open a beer and start singing and dancing around in the middle of the street to celebrate).
Oh sure
Submitted by OlyCop on Sun, 10/15/2006 - 1:08pm.I know the frequent flyers. And yes I think you understand me completely based on your post.
I agree Heinze is a good guy, and does a good job. And I'm sure he appreciates your promotion you gave him! :) He's a Sgt. for what it's worth.
Phil, you and I should talk sometime.
By the way I won't arrest you on that warrant in the system when we meet..... :)
J/K everyone
"The strongest reason to retain the right to keep and bear arms is to protect against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson.
By the way I won't arrest
Submitted by Phil Owen on Sun, 10/15/2006 - 1:13pm.Oh, shit! Is there something I need to know about here? I hate it when I'm in trouble and not even aware of it. ;)
We should indeed have a beer sometime soon.
How's about Monday night...
Submitted by Rick on Sun, 10/15/2006 - 10:20pm....say...I don't know...at the Brotherhood?
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow
Unless You Registered Shower Users / Loungers...
Submitted by Ehver Green on Mon, 11/27/2006 - 4:02pm.The cop station part doesnt need to be that big..
Submitted by bubbaz (not verified) on Mon, 11/27/2006 - 5:16pm.Im picturing 99% general facility, 1% Cop Shop
I think the 24hr drop in aspect is the most powerful one..
A kind of safe haven..(well lit)
(Stick in some basketball hoops, bocce, chessboards, and plenty of benches..)
Think of it as a more dignified Penn Station, but with hygene facilities, laundry, and phones, etc..
I'm with ya, although I
Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 11/28/2006 - 9:47am.