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Submitted by jlw on Tue, 06/12/2007 - 6:11pm.

Judge Susan Dubuisson dismissed charges against 16 defendants charged with criminal trespass during the anti-war demonstrations at the Port of Olympia in May of 2006. Judge Dubuisson found that there had been "gross negligence" on the part of the prosecutor's office in the discovery process. Seven motions were heard at the pre-trial hearing today, including a motion to compel the prosecutor's office to disclose, in camera, the identity of their "informant," who passed along legal work product from a closed list-serv used by the defendants and counsel. This dissemination of information regarding jurors, obtained by the prosecutor's office from this list-serv, led to the earlier mistrial of the port protesters in late March of 2007.

Because the case has been dismissed, the in camera hearing with the judge, prosecutors, and representatives of the Thurston County Sheriff's office, tentatively scheduled for this week, will not occur, and the identity of the "informant" who leaked information from the defendants' list-serv to the prosecutor's office will not be disclosed. Questions of prosecutorial misconduct have also been laid to rest with this dismissal.

Judge Dubuisson heard arguments for seven motions at the pre-trial hearing which began at 3:00. At 4:30, she called a recess to deliberate. After the hearing resumed just before 5 p.m., she delivered her decisions on the motions, and argument ensued. It wasn't until after she decided to hold an in-camera hearing on the issue of the "informant," delaying her decision on the motion regarding prosecutorial misconduct, that the motion to dismiss was seriously entertained.

Defendants have had a great deal of difficulty in obtaining discovery all along; the most recent incident, which led to dismissal of charges, involved confidential memos from the Sheriff's office, one dated June 3, 2006, that were not received by defendants and their counsel until as late as June 8, 2007. In order to exercise their right to a speedy trial (within 90 days of the mistrial), defendants were scheduled to be tried prior to June 27th, giving them very little time to prepare. Judge Dubuisson declared that she was forced to choose between the defendants' right to a fair trial, and their right to a speedy trial.

Prosecutor Debra Eurich was replaced today by Jim Powers, who lost to Anne Hirsch in his November 2006 bid for a Thurston County Superior Court judgeship. Powers, who represented the prosecutor's office along with Steve Schraume, argued rather ineffectively against the motion for dismissal, stating that discovery delays were due to staff transitions. When defendants objected to submission of a witness list with almost three times as many witnesses listed as were named on the prosecution's witness list for the first trial, Powers argued that he "works that way," and the defendants probably wouldn't have bothered to interview witnesses, anyway.

The defense argued that a great deal of effort had been put into trying to interview witnesses. Phan Nguyen, who represented himself pro se, described an incident in which two sheriffs had refused to be interviewed by him without his going through the prosecutor's office, which obstructed his efforts. Judge Dubuisson remarked, while delivering her decision to dismiss, that the defendants, particularly the pro se defendants, had worked "aggressively" on their case, and she did not concur with Powers' argument that the defendants wouldn't have bothered to interview witnesses even if they'd been given more time. She did, however, also express regret that she had to take the action of dismissing charges.

The defendants and their supporters reacted jubilantly when Judge Dubuisson announced that she was dismissing the charges (See photos on my flickr.com site). The prosecutors looked appropriately downcast, but as they lugged away their boxes of files on dolleys, I had to wonder to myself... losing this case isn't exactly good for their careers, but what might have come to light if they had been compelled to reveal the details of their obtaining confidential emails?

Folks Celebrate

AttachmentSize
win.jpg147.98 KB
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Holy shit!

Your humble videographer congratulates you.
»

And congratulations to you, too!

NOW I know who you are! Hey, people were asking about the video today after the hearing. There was talk of making a documentary about the case!
»

Janet

Do you have any more details?
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Yes....

... I just edited my post. I was at the hearing this afternoon. But I wanted to scoop the Olympian for Olyblog! And the phone kept ringing!! And my kid was hungry!
»

Great News

This is great news. It's about time that these charges were dismissed. It would be nice, also, to know if the prosecution will be forced to reveal its informants.
»

Thanks, Rob!!

I had the very same question in my mind, about the informants. Regrettably, that's been laid to rest, at least temporarily. I hope some of the defendants resurrect that issue, though -- I think it's very possible there was some very serious misconduct on the part of the prosecutors and/or sheriffs. (And thanks for cleaning up my copy!)
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Doesnt the Port owe the City some $$?

I read somewhere that the Port owes the City several thousands of dollars because of police and other services provided during this event.
»

Yeah. TJ brought that up.

You probably read that here .
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No way the port should pay

No way the port should pay for the city's lack of fiscal planning.  Maybe the military, but certainly not the port.  Police response is a part of doing city business - if the OPD didn't budget for such incidents, then that's on them (city council included).
»

Did he (Nguyen)

subpoena the Deputies?  I never comply with an interview request by the defense unless I'm under subpoena or get the blessing of the prosecutor's office.  There is no legal requirement to comply with a "request" so why do so?  It only serves to likely weaken the prosecution's case. 

Phan Nguyen, who represented himself pro se, described an incident in which two sheriffs had refused to be interviewed by him without his going through the prosecutor's office, which obstructed his efforts.

Sure sounds like the ball was dropped by someone.  I wonder if it was accidental or intentional?

 "I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure."  Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986

»

Just how closely do cops work with prosecutors?

I may be naive, even though I was married to a prosecutor in Pierce County, but isn't the truth the TRUTH and the job of the police is not to "help" the procecutor but rather to tell the truth while under oath. If the truth weakens the prosecutor's case it really is of no concern to the police. Do police actually sit there and wonder if they are weakening the prosecutor's case by telling the truth or giving accurate testimony?

 

"I would make it impossible for the covetous and avaricious to utterly impoverish the poor. The rich can take care of themselves."
^@^

»

If you arrested someone, that you KNOW

should go to jail, but something happend during the arrest that might weaken the case, what would you do? Forget the truth, let's go back to right vs. wrong. Bad guy needs to go to prison, cop forgot the last sentence while giving the miranda rights. Who are you gonna get behind Crenshaw?
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Norm - In your example I'm

Norm - In your example I'm completely in agreement with you and the arresting officer. But I think Crenshaw was referring to the other possible situation of an officer knowing that a particular defendant isn't guilty, or at least that they didn't do the most serious of the charges against them. What then?
»

If you know the person isn't guilty

then of course you come forward. In the case in question I think most of us know the actual guilt of the party.
»

In the case in question I

In the case in question I think most of us know the actual guilt of the party.

Not so fast. People had a right to protest, as long as they did it legally. If they want to block streets, chain themselves to fences or destroy property then by all means they should be held accountable, and if they're cussing out officers or doing anything else to bring attention to themselves they shouldn't be surprised if they're watched closely. But for those who weren't breaking any laws and just happened to be caught in the collateral sweep, or were singled out for being vocal enough, they shouldn't be convicted of anything they didn't do.

I'm not saying I know the facts on the 16, or 22. I heard that most of them had nothing to do with tearing down the gate. Again, I don't know. Without videotape, or plenty of testimony from witnesses besides just the military or police, there's enough for reasonable doubt.

»

Did you miss it?

Well, I saw a handful arrested myself. I have a few pictures even. Oh, and police are allowed to testify, I'm not sure why it wasn't brought up. Beyond that though, read up on their "necessity defense". They admit to breaking the law, they just wanted to argue that it was justified because of Iraq. Right there is an admission of guilt. Did you not see the pictures/video of folks lying down and being told that they are tresspassing and then arresting them? How about those that resisted? I have a lovely couple of pictures of a guy shoving a state trooper and getting tossed to the ground and paintballed with pepper spray.

Had I known the prosecutors office was too busy with their skirt chasing to form a decent case I may have sent my pictures in to help them out. After this and the DeGroff(sp?) case I've lost all faith in this county's prosecutor office.

»

No, I haven't seen any of

No, I haven't seen any of that, hence my repeated saying that I didn't know one way or the other. Plus I hadn't been reading too much on it.

Shove a trooper, get punk'd. I'm alright with that. Admit you're guilty, I'll take your word for it.

All I'm asking, and what I'd ask if I were on a jury, was if any of the 24 were the specific ones you mention in the examples. If so then yes they should be big enough to deal with potential consequences.

»

No one was charged with assault...

... or anything like that. The defendants whose charges were recently dismissed were all charged with criminal trespass, i.e. lying down on the pavement at the port beyond the line where the sheriffs and troopers told them they could go. "Criminal trespass, second degree," by the way, is a misdemeanor.
»

Seems if it was such an open

Seems if it was such an open and shut case with photographic proof that the defendants were guilty then the Prosecution should have had no problem handing the memos over to the defense. Surely you're not that against Truth being revealed as the thread suggests. I'm not talking about a known criminal being released on a technicality.

»

Not due to lack of evidence

Judge Dubuisson found that there had been "gross negligence" on the part of the prosecutor's office in the discovery process.

.....most recent incident, which led to dismissal of charges, involved confidential memos from the Sheriff's office, one dated June 3, 2006, that were not received by defendants and their counsel until as late as June 8, 2007.

....Powers argued that he "works that way," and the defendants probably wouldn't have bothered to interview witnesses, anyway.

.....Judge Dubuisson remarked, while delivering her decision to dismiss, that the defendants, particularly the pro se defendants, had worked "aggressively" on their case, and she did not concur with Powers' argument that the defendants wouldn't have bothered to interview witnesses even if they'd been given more time. She did, however, also express regret that she had to take the action of dismissing charges.

Ed Holm, Jim Powers, and Co "screwed the pooch". It sounds like the Sheriff's office was derelict as well. It wasn't a lack of evidence, it was a lack of sharing the evidence. It was a lack of brain power(no pun intended) on Jim Powers part. I'm all for the truth. Had the PA office been forward and truthful about the whole thing and this had gone to a jury trial the case should have been a slam dunk. The 22's defense was ruled non-admissible. If the jury followed the rules they would have all been convicted. I blame the PA's office for this mockery of justice.

The blame I hold for the accused is secondary. They know they breaking the law. They got away with it because of our local justice system. They are cheering because the PA's office is a bunch of idiots.

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No Slam Dunk

I have to disagree with you Norm, that this case would have been a slam dunk if it had gone to trial. When the jury was polled at the conclusion of the mistrial, they were leaning 7 to 1 in favor of acquittal -- and this was BEFORE the defense presented their case. Frankly, a lot of people think that the prosecutors asked for a mistrial because they knew they were losing -- they wanted to severe the cases, hand-pick a jury, and put together a better panel of witnesses and evidence than they did originally. Yesterday, Judge Dubuisson said that although she did not concur that the prosecutors asked for a mistrial because they knew they were losing, the fact that so many additional witnesses and evidence were presented for the second trial does tend to give that impression.

The fact that the someone hacked into the defendants' list-serv, changed the moderator status, and sent confidential materials to the prosecutors means that the prosecutor's office may well have seen EVERY email on that list. Many people feel that they held onto that jurors worksheet the same way you might hang on to the ace of trump until you really need it in a game of whist. Personally, I have to wonder which is a more serious crime: lying down on the pavement at the Port of Olympia, or breaching attorney-client privilege and spying on someone else's email. Too bad we may never know the real story behind the security breach of that list-serv.

»

I should rephrase

It SHOULD have been a slam dunk. Again this can easily be blamed on the prosecutors office and the sheriff's office. There were how many potential witnesses around watching the 22 lay on the pavement? I personally saw a law enforcement officer taping everything, good piece of evidence there. I didn't see anything in the paper asking for witnesses to events down at the port, I would have testified in a heartbeat. If the jury, pre-trial, was not convinced that these 22 were guilty then the prosecutors office needs to get some better people in there. Tresspassing? How much easier could it get? It just blows my mind.

I'm not sure about the listserv thing. I do have to wonder why the heck you would send confidential information that way. Did some of the 22 not have a mailing address? Phones? If someone did hack in it wasn't right, but the 22 and their attorney's were a little stupid to think that would be a secure way of sending confidential information.

So let's just hash it out considering there's no hope of prosecuting the 22. I want to know how many of them will actually step-up and admit they were breaking the law and were guilty. How about this Janet, next time we are at the broho, can you honestly look me in the eye and claim that these folks were NOT breaking the law?

»

For one, email is faster and cheaper

Saying the defendants were stupid to expect their privileged communications would not be violated is not a very good defense for the crimes committed by whoever the "informant" or "spy" was. I buy things or pay bills online sometimes with a credit card. I paid my Qwest bill that way this week, over what I was assured was a secure system; was I stupid or unreasonable to expect not to be defrauded? The list-serv was closed, and moderated. Someone HACKED in, changed the moderator status, and put a couple of spies on the list, who then passed along confidential communications to the prosecutors. Personally, I consider that a collection of crimes of much greater magnitude than lying down on the pavement in a war protest. I know most of the Oly22, Norm; they're nice, hard-working young people, not a bunch of violent thugs. And they're certainly not stupid -- they just proved that, didn't they?
»

No, they did not prove

No, they did not prove that.  The proved they are smarter than the prosecution, but that's not saying much!

I don't buy that the listserv was closed and moderated and if it was, who was providing this level of security?  Was their an agreement (service level or breach level)?  Hacked is a strong word - was the system truly compromised (proof?) or was it inadvertantly left open?  Big difference... 

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Again

If someone did hack in it wasn't right....

I agreed with you. If you are having such a hard time with it I expect it should be investigated, maybe since the 22 are so smart they can find some proof as to who did it and press some charges. I'll wait around for that.

So Janet, you ducked the question. Can you look me in the eye and tell me that they did not commit a crime? I don't care if they are the Pope, did they commit a crime?

Proved they were certainly not stupid? No, they did bring show the world how incredibly inept the Thurston county legal system is. Unless the only reason they decided to fight the charge was because they knew that the county would flub their case.

So I've put down the prosecutors all day. I really want to hear your opinion on the actual guilt or innocence of your friends.

»

I was there and witnessed their "crime"

Whether it was unlawful or not, I don't think it was wrong, and a determination about its lawfulness or criminality is really beyond my scope of knowledge. I saw what they did, I know why they did it, and I don't have a problem with it. Let the prosecutors call it criminal trespass, I call it nonviolent civil disobedience, and I admire them for it. And please, Norm, before we hear about the people you witnessed throwing rocks and bottles, remember, no one was charged with any crimes involving flying objects. The defendants yesterday were charged with criminal trespass, a misdemeanor, and I am glad my tax dollars are not being misused by the prosecutor's office anymore!
»

*gasp*

I was there and witnessed their "crime"

You could have testified for the prosecutors! ;)

Seriously I'm not going to bring the flying objects into the conversation (they were there though). I was planning on only focusing on the trespassing charge(s). I would call it trespassing also.....and they got away with it. Not something I admire people for.

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Well, we differ on this

Well, we differ on this subject. I don't see the point in arguing about it anymore.
»

WTF?If the jury, pre-trial,

WTF?

If the jury, pre-trial, was not convinced that these 22 were guilty then the prosecution needs to get better people in there.

Again, WTF?

If any juror is convinced pre-trial on guilt or innocence then they don't belong there. You're either saying that better prosecutors would load the jury with biased people, or the only good juror is one biased for the prosecution. Not cool, hope it's just me misreading again.

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So true, Merwyn

Any juror who was convinced before hearing the evidence that the defendants were guilty could be dismissed, with cause.

There is an interesting point about jury selection to be made here. Because there were so many defendants and each got a certain number of peremptory challenges during the jury selection process, the defendants had an advantage in jury selection. And I am sure that they did their best to eliminate potential jurors with an obvious pro-war, pro-law-enforcement bias. For instance, I'm sure they would have dismissed Norm and Olycop from the jury after questioning them a bit, using one of their many peremptory challenges.

This was definitely an advantage for the defendants. Many people believed that part of the prosecution's plan was to sever the cases before the re-trial (and the prosecution did, indeed, file a motion to sever), so that they would have more control over jury selection, and be able to hand-pick a jury more sympathetic to the war and more inclined to side with law enforcement, than the original jury in the mistrial had been.

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Janet's quote:

When the jury was polled at the conclusion of the mistrial, they were leaning 7 to 1 in favor of acquittal -- and this was BEFORE the defense presented their case

That was what I was speaking of. "Pre-trial" would have been my own issue with using the wrong term.

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Too bad we may never know

Too bad we may never know the real story behind the security breach of that list-serv.

Exactly.  You have no idea who this person was or what side they were on.  It may have been a mole.  It may have been the teenage son of someone on the side of the prosecution.  It may have been someone negotiating with the PA for lesser charges or no charges at all (a defendant).

The common denominator here is people representing themselves.  Any real lawyer would have stopped listserv conversation *IMMEDIATELY* upon finding out this was a major means of communication.  It just doesn't make sense...

All things aside, the judge did the right thing.  I'm not happy about it and I think some people who deserved a reasonable punishment are walking away from it.  The world will stay in tact and it is likely they will get their day in court another time.  Karma has a way of playing catch up.

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There were "real lawyers" on that list-serv

I think there were five or six defense attorneys on the list-serv. (Not everyone defended themselves pro se.)
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And they were OK with that

And they were OK with that as secure communication?  Oh, brother...
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Truth, honor, and professionalism work for me.

It is true that police are human. As humans they will make mistakes, forget things, mis-remember things. I am unlikely to accuse the police of shoddy work, they appear to be very professional and well trained. I'm unlikely to say the police are dishonorable if I go by my experience with Olycop and other police that I am friends with. I will only say that the truth is the only thing one must be concerned with and the truth should be nothing but that, even if it damages the prosecutor's case. The procesutor and defense have many tools at their disposal but no party should have a tool that so carefully can shape a lie into the truth. Leave the untruths to the guilty, that is their domain, but the prosecution and poliice should always deal in what is true.

 

"I would make it impossible for the covetous and avaricious to utterly impoverish the poor. The rich can take care of themselves."
^@^

»

I agree with you

Unfortunately I'm just pissy about our current state of the judicial system in this county...heck in this country even.

Telling the truth is ultimately the best policy. I wish the criminals would figure that one out.

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In response to Olycop's question

Jim Powers tried to excuse the prosecutor's office for turning in a hugely expanded witness list at the last minute, by saying "Oh, the defense wouldn't haven't bothered to interview any of these witnesses anyway; they haven't interviewed any others." And that was not true, at least one law enforcement officer had been deposed, and the defendants had at least tried to interview others. I don't know how far Phan got in his efforts, but I do know that he has a full-time job, and he also prepared a great motion to compel (the prosecutor's office to reveal how they accessed the defendants' private emails), which must have been very time-consuming.

One of the defense attorneys told me after the hearing that the prosecutor's office has been really sloppy and careless about getting discovery to defendants on time, to the correct address, "forgetting" to send things, etc., and he hoped this decision would encourage the office to comply with the rules concerning procedure for producing discovery. There was some question about whether the delay in producing certain documents, for instance the one that was over a year old, was due to misconduct on the part of the prosecutor's office, or by the Sheriff's Department. It couldn't really be determined at the hearing, but it was clear that somewhere along the chain, a governmental agency had either intentionally or negligently failed to produce the discovery that the defendants were legally entitled to.

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Best line ever

.....the prosecutor's office has been really sloppy and careless.....
»

To answer OlyCop's question

I'll answer OlyCop's question and then make a few general observations:

I had attempted to schedule an interview with Det. Mike Hirte and Chief Jim Chamberlain of the Sheriff's Office. I knew they were involved in the case and that they had been in communication with the prosecution, but I was not sure (and still not sure) to what extent, and the prosecution was refusing to say, claiming that they had nothing to do with the case.

At the time, I did not even know what agency Det. Hirte worked for. I asked him in person, and not only did he refuse to answer that basic question, but he refused to provide me with any contact info! I didn't know what his first name was, or even how to spell his last name.

At least two other lawyers contacted the prosecutor's office asking for more information on Det. Hirte and requesting to schedule an interview with him. The prosecutor denied the request, claiming it was unrelated to the case and that it went against "the public interest." We filed motions to compel the prosecution to allow us to do so, and those motions, which were filed as early as April, were not heard in court until June 12.

Despite the prosecution's continued claims that Hirte and Chamberlain had nothing to do with the case, Det. Hirte was added to the prosecution's list of witnesses last week, with no explanation why. Trials were to begin as soon as June 18. We had just been given a list of at least 15 additional witnesses that the prosecution may or may not be calling up and a bunch of extra police reports, including one that someone had been sitting on for over a year. I should qualify the "we" by noting that some of the counsels and pro se defendants weren't even given these documents at all.

All of this would have been bad enough, except that it was an ongoing issue through the enitre year of court proceedings, all of which we documented in numerous briefs throughout the case.

There was a police videotape that we asked for and that the prosecution claimed no knowledge of and no interest in. Yet when we tried to acquire the videotape on our own, the prosecution suddenly became interested in it and told us the tape was destroyed. Then when we scheduled an interview with the police officer who shot the tape, the prosecutor rescheduled the time and date of the interview without asking us and also moved the interview to the prosecutor's office. Then when we arrived for the rescheduled interview, the prosecutor tried to tell us which lawyers and pro se defendants could interview the officer, and which ones couldn't.

This went on and on. Later, during trial, the prosecution purposely withheld information that I believe would have averted a mistrial. However, the prosecution knew that it was losing the case and wanted a mistrial in order to start over. This isn't mere suspicion. I reviewed the transcripts and could clearly see the prosecution's gradual maneuvering into a mistrial. This was further corroborated by the prosecution's sudden changes of tactics for a second trial, which the judge also noted with concern.

Although I'm glad the case is over, I am disappointed that the prosecution deprived us of the opportunity to be exonerated by a jury in the first trial. And that means a lot of people are going to complain that we were hardened criminals who got off on a technicality. Then again, if we had won at trial, the same folks would just complain that the prosecution lost by incompetence and not by the merits of the case. After all, we were arrested, and that's guilty enough.

Beyond that, I remain astounded that people would think a mere allegation of misdemeanor trespass, 2nd degree, amounts to $29,000 of damage, violence against police, putting soldiers at risk, demoralizing the troops, and providing aid and comfort to "The Enemy," and that various comments (not here) have suggested that we should have been beaten up (some were), run over, or even killed. The Port of Olympia even held us responsible for actions supposedly committed while we were sitting in jail!

People have put up a fuss over unsubstantiated damage to a fence and how we supposedly instigated some sort of violence, without recognizing the extent of violence that we as a country are exporting to other parts of the world -- or the extent of violence that has been inflicted by and inflicted upon the 3rd Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division as a result of the successful departure of the USNS Pomeroy from the Port of Olympia last year, prior to the 3rd Brigade's own deployment a month later. (Almost 40 soldiers from the 3-2 Brigade have been killed since deployment, unknown number wounded, unknown number of Iraqis killed or wounded)

Some people may disagree with our tactics, especially when they have crazy ideas about what actually went on at the Port. But they should lead by example, not by the weight of their keystrokes.

Finally, we are still concerned about the unresolved issue of unknown government agencies spying on the constitutionally-protected activities of local activists, not to mention spying on confidential attorney-client work privilege (and here, I'll note that we know some gov't agencies monitor OlyBlog, and I'm not talking about OlyCop). This issue broke open during the Oly 22 trial, and it may have been partially resolved if the case had continued. Instead we will be pursuing our investigation of this matter through other channels. Legally, of course.

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Thanks Phan,

 for the clarification, it sounds like you did your job very well.  Too bad both sides were denied their time in court.   

 "I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure."  Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986

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oly22 dismissal

great news, glad to hear of it and sorry i wasn't there for the celebration afterward. it would have been best in some ways, of course, to have the case go to trial in order to have the opportunity to more widely publicize reasons for stopping militarization of our ports, but i'm sure we'll have other opportunities for that. thanks to all the defendants, supporters, and legal representatives. peace to all.
»

The Necessity Defense

I agree that it would have been awesome to go to trial and be able to use the necessity defense, as originally ruled. Defendants were planning to bring in a lot of experts to discuss the illegality of the war, thus arguing that their actions were committed in order to prevent a greater harm. But after the Superior Court disallowed the necessity defense, continuing the trial without being able to reference the fact that the defendants were participating in an anti-war protest made the whole procedure pretty much a useless waste of time, and I know the defendants are very happy not to have to go trotting up to the courthouse again and again and again and again.
»

CS

On most cases that go to trial, an Officer/Detective assists the prosecutor with prosecution of the case.

Frequently, a defense attorney wants to meet with the arresting officer or witness officers.  The purpose of this is to find holes in the case for their client.  And anything the officer said, will likely be used to impeach him/her on the stand later.  

There rarely would be any benefit to the state's/city's case to meet with the defense attorney, so I don't.  And certainly not without discussing it with the prosecutor first.

It does sound like sloppy work on the prosecutor's side.     

 "I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure."  Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986

»

Do you believe that people

Do you believe that people are innocent until proven guilty? Likely not given your comments here. If you do, then shouldn't a police officer be neutral and work with both sides equally. How else would someone get a fair trial?

What kind of perks or bonuses,if any, do OPD officers recieve for their collars being found guilty versus being found not guilty?

If another cop, or friend or family member was being tried for something and you happened to be the arresting officer, would you work as closely with the prosecution as you would against your average arrest?

»

Rob,

Police are not neutral.  We are tasked with investigating crime, collecting evidence, interviewing suspects/witnesses, and arresting the offenders based on a pretty low burden of proof, probable cause.  We build a case against the suspect, definitely not neutral.  If the investigation indicates the suspect is likely not guilty we move on to another suspect.  If it shows he/she is guilty, we build on that in hopes we can attain the required burden of proof for a conviction.

Prosecutors and defense attorney's are not neutral either.  One side tries for a conviction, the other side tries to prevent it.

Judges and juries are supposed to be neutral.  They listen to both sides and make a decision based on a burden of proof that is much harder to attain, beyond a reasonable doubt.

Defense attorneys will do what they need to, to save their client, or at least minimize his legal liability.  Defense attorneys are sneeky, just like the cops are.  And are no way neutral in their piece of the courtroom pie.

The protestors didn't get off because they were not guilty or innocent.  They got off due to screw-ups.  Just because you are found to be not guilty doesn't mean you're innocent either.

So Rob, was O.J. Simpson guilty of murder?  Regardless of what the jury said, do you believe he was guilty, or was he innocent?

 "I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure."  Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986

»

I heard Goldman wants to

I heard Goldman wants to publish O.J.'s book afterall, but instead of calling it If I'd Done It call it Confessions of a Double Murderer.

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Thank you for clarifying.

Thank you for clarifying. If I understand what you're saying, cops don't solve crimes, they bust suspects? If you arrest somebody who fits a profile or "seems" like a strong suspect, or even take them in for questioning, you immediately consider them guilty? I think that's what you're saying, and correct me if I'm wrong. It's well known in scientific circles, and cops are scientists in a way, that if you enter into your research with a bias, then your results will reflect that bias. An example: If I'm being paid a ton of money to prove that global warming is not connected to human behavior, then for more than one reason, my final analysis will certainly state that. All of my research will be aimed at proving that, and the reality of the situation will go unnoticed.

I think by focusing on the supposed guilt of a suspect, bias is created in your mind, and that bias can blind. A few years back, this very nation was actually convinced that Oswald acted alone. We've seen mountains of photographic, video, and ballistic evidence, as well as eye-witness testimony that leans toward more than one gunperson, but in the heat of the moment, with Kennedy's body cooling off, and sadness and anger sweeping the nation, people wanted someone to blame.

Is OJ guilty? In my opinion, or according to the courts? And which holds more water? My opinion: He's an abusive murdering scumbag. The courts: not guilty. My opinion won't get him convicted. Your opinion, as a cop, however, can. I think you have a great deal of power, and you know it, over peoples lives. I don't want to get into whether I feel it's justified or not, that's a whole nother conversation. Just like in the rape case a few months back, a mentally ill man was a perfect suspect, he even happened to be houseless at the time, bonus. Everything pointed to him being guilty because the cops investigating it wanted him to be guilty. For good reasons I'm sure. To provide closure, and most importantly justice, to the family of the victim and the community as a whole. Big mistakes were made, I believe, because of this intrusive bias that seeps into police investigations. Sometimes it seems that just busting somebody and being able to tell the paper or the City or the public that "we got 'em", is more important than the truth.

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Whatever Rob

your little tirade here is similar to mine about the homeless a couple months ago.  But I won't lose my mind like you did and "go off on you" like you did me.

As for the guy that raped that little girl, yeah one of ours arrested the wrong guy, but ultimately the right guy was arrested.  And remember it wasn't only a cop that got the wrong guy into jail.  The prosecutor had his/her hands on the case, and a judge approved the probable cause. 

I don't think anyone ever said mistakes can't be made in the criminal justice system.  It does happen, and unfortuately people are serving time in prison for stuff they didn't do.  Perhaps since you are perfect, you should become a cop and right all the wrongs being done here in the US.

It's real easy to sit  in the cheap seats and throw rocks.  Yes you point out one error, a significant error, that got a guy arrested, and ultimately the mental health care he deserved and needed.  But I don't think I have ever heard you sing the praises of law enforcement for all the good work done. 

It's real clear you have issues with law enforcement, and I doubt you will get over them soon, if ever.  But don't be poking all of law enforcement in the eye with the stick because of some isolated mistakes.  Just like not all homeless are album cover material for the Aqualung album, not all cops are $#%*ups.

As for these folks who won't be held accountable for their law violations, I'm guessing they're happy the prosecutor screwed up.  Because, anyone that was there know they violated the law.  If there was any doubt there would have been all kinds of motions with claims of false arrest, etc.  I believe Janet is likely correct, they would have been aquitted.  That is the trend in this part of the country, i.e. Bremerton area w/Bangor, etc.  And they likely had a real good chance to get a jury more sympathetic to their cause/plight. 

I have always said, if you're guilty you want a jury trial.  And if you're innocent you want a bench trial.

 

 "I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure."  Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986

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I'm with Olycop on this one (mostly)...

...with a few exceptions.

David Lucas Lynch probably didn't get the mental health care he needed. Most likely scenario: When the charges against him were dropped, the hospital found that it had little cause to find him in "immanent danger" of causing harm to self or others. I'll tell you, I've seen people do some unbelievable shit without getting committed. So the hospital probably booted him right out onto the street, possibly without even the courtesy of a bus ticket back to Olympia.

Now, none of this is the fault of the police (unfortunately, civil rights attorneys would be the more appropriate target). I also want to say, as I've said before , that I don't think the cops were being unreasonable when they arrested Lynch. They found a dishevelled mentally ill homeless man a few short blocks from the crime scene, not long after the crime occurred. He didn't answer their questions clearly. After the news article came out, there were a hell of a lot of very reasonable people (including Lynch's former roommates) who assumed he was guilty. One of his former roommates said to me, "I feel so bad for having believed he was guilty. He's such a sweet guy. But he also went downhill really seriously... and when the newspaper printed that story my heart sank." (It may have helped that when the cops came to question Lynch's old roommates, and to find the whereabouts of his camp, they told the roommates that the DNA evidence proved his guilt. As Olycop said, cops are "sneaky". This is how they get the evidence that actually does prove guilt.)

It should also be noted that the greater injustice by far was perpetuated by the newspaper. When Lynch was cleared by DNA, the cops and the prosecutor dropped the charges, went after a new suspect, and pursued the case vigorously. The same cannot be said of the newspaper. After being smeared in sensational issue after sensational issue, only a brief mention cleared Lynch in the paper. The new suspect (whose DNA DID prove guilt) didn't get photos of his face and his home plastered across the newspaper under bold-print headlines. His reading list and his journal stayed out of the news. After all, he was a rather normal looking, presumably middle class kid. Nothing sensational there.

(EDIT: I haven't said enough about the media here.  I want to make very clear that I no longer believe that the journalist's field, whether TV or print, is an effective tool of democracy.  It is, rather, an effective forum for gossip.  The news media are more a hindrance to our society that a good these days.  In fact, they are downright slimey.  I would encourage every journalist to quit his or her job, in the name of the common good.  Maybe bloggers will do a better job.)

 

Now, I don't find anything surprising in Olycop's comment that cops aren't neutral. They aren't paid to be neutral. They're paid to find a suspect and build a case. Judges are paid to be neutral. Defense attorneys are paid to be biased in the opposite direction from the cops and the prosecution. Here's the catch: poor people don't get real defense attorneys. They get what has been commonly dubbed "public pretenders". They see rich people (read: OJ Simpson, Ted Kennedy, etc) literally get away with bloody murder, but the poor get busted every time they sit down within ten feet of a beer bottle on a sidewalk. For the most part, the poor are really afraid of the police... because they know what Olycop said to be true, and they also know that they have no defense. The rich are aware that cops aren't neutral; but they aren't afraid because they have the capability for a strong defense.

This is not the fault of the police. It is the fault of the political system that robs the poor of every kind of justice. Cops are just doing their job.

 

The Canaanite's Call

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Amen!

EDIT: I haven't said enough about the media here.  I want to make very clear that I no longer believe that the journalist's field, whether TV or print, is an effective tool of democracy.  It is, rather, an effective forum for gossip.  The news media are more a hindrance to our society that a good these days.  In fact, they are downright slimey.  I would encourage every journalist to quit his or her job, in the name of the common good.  Maybe bloggers will do a better job.)

Now, I don't find anything surprising in Olycop's comment that cops aren't neutral. They aren't paid to be neutral. They're paid to find a suspect and build a case. Judges are paid to be neutral. Defense attorneys are paid to be biased in the opposite direction from the cops and the prosecution. Here's the catch: poor people don't get real defense attorneys. They get what has been commonly dubbed "public pretenders". They see rich people (read: OJ Simpson, Ted Kennedy, etc) literally get away with bloody murder, but the poor get busted every time they sit down within ten feet of a beer bottle on a sidewalk. For the most part, the poor are really afraid of the police... because they know what Olycop said to be true, and they also know that they have no defense. The rich are aware that cops aren't neutral; but they aren't afraid because they have the capability for a strong defense.

This is not the fault of the police. It is the fault of the political system that robs the poor of every kind of justice. Cops are just doing their job.

That was awesome Phil. Regarding the media, if you haven't had a chance to listen to the Gore "assault on reason" speech done in Seattle. PLEASE try and find it.

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Hehe...

Aww, Norm!  Are you turning into an Al Gore fan

 

The Canaanite's Call

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begrudgingly yes

I still don't agree with some of his ideas. I am whole-heartedly impressed with him lately though. After watching his movie, and then catching the last 45 min ( I hate missing the beginning) of his "assault on reason" up in Seattle I'm really beginning to like the guy.
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I believe with the right

I believe with the right running mate (Obama) he could win the democratic nomination.
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Normy, Normy, tisk, tisk

you are out of my will, lol.  Invasion of the body snatchers must have come to Normy's house.

I would vote for Hillary before Osama Obama or Uncle Albert, and you all know what I think of the Clintons.

The Repubs don't have much to offer yet, but it looks like my choice will throw his hat in the ring soon.

 

 "I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure."  Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986

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I have been a little groggy lately

...I thought it was the benadryl but maybe it's something else!

You'd vote for Hillary before Gore?

I figured you were hoping to vote for Fred. Am I right?

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Yup,

Fred is my man.  And really the only Rep that stands a chance beating a demo this time around.  Several of the Reps are demos in Rep clothing anyway. 

 "I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure."  Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986

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random thoughts..

OPD doesnt get let off of the hook with the whole Lynch debacle. Olympia Police Commander Tor Bjornstad, himself, took the lead in presenting the whole spectacle.

It was inexcusable to present a pending rape investigation this way. Totally unproffesional. The were not even 100% certain that the crime occured, let alone if they had the right guy, but there is the police commander, himself, leading a tour of the homeless freakshow for the media.

I know the hacks at the Olympian are to blame here as well, but there needs to be some accountablity with OPD too..

When OPD finally caught Peter Jacob Inouye (a 24yr old, gun loving momma's boy), all of the coverage miraculously ended. Police Commander Tor Bjornstad led no grand tour of Peter Jacob Inouye's mothers house for all to see. No follow up by the Olympian as of yet.

Strange..

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As a 27y/o gun loving

As a 27y/o gun loving momma's boy, I'm not quite sure how to digest your comment there.
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thats what he was..

nothing to do with you..
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i wonder what the status of this case is right now?

it just kind of disappeared somehow..
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Cheeze Whiz, I always

Cheeze Whiz, I always thought you were older than me.

Kid, I was writing in cursive and multiplying up to 12 when you were born.

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D'oh!

Did I look older at the cafe?
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So

Even if you didn't think the guy was guilty, do you really think people weren't interested about this guy who built himself an underground shelter in watershed park and was part of an investigation? Which he SHOULD have been part of, for the reasons that Phil pointed out. I was pretty curious....call it the grizzly adams in me.
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It doesnt matter who me or you thought was guilty..

It doesnt matter who me or you thought was guilty. Thats for the news media to decide since people like us cant think for ourselves. We were not responsible for running this investigation, OPD was. 3 weeks spent dicking around with whoever they chose to pick up off the street, leaves ample time for the real perp to flee the country..
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OPD would have been

OPD would have been irresponsible had they not investigated this kid. As Phil already stated, he was not far from the crime scene, living where he was not supposed to, and could not answer their questions. That's enough resonable suspicion for an arrest. Once they further investigated and found some of the things in his shelter they had even MORE reason to investigate. The only thing that was wrong with the whole picture (other than the media frenzy) was that the guy didn't fit the physical description. If you add in things like, terror, shock, lack of lighting, age group etc you can see why they had him arrested for questioning at the least. I do think they should have not counted their chickens before the hatched and put out the picture that the victim described rather than high-fiving (at least seemingly) and moving on.

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We aint disagreeing..

Bringing in suspects is part of any normal investigation. However, the other stuff that went beyond that is inexcusable and should have been called on. It never was (except by us here on Olyblog)
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True

It would have been nice for the daily O to address that as well. I'm wondering the same thing you were above. What happend to the story?
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But don't be poking all of

But don't be poking all of law enforcement in the eye with the stick because of some isolated mistakes.

That's Rob, pokin' eyes and takin' names. 

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OC

What I wrote wasn't a tirade. I didn't lose my mind or go off on you. I really truly meant everything I said.

I appreciate the dialogue that we have here. I wouldn't have any dialogue with cops if it weren't for the blog, and I think it's cool. I have nothing against you, you seem to be a good person, you care deeply about your family and you are usually rational in your beliefs and the expression of them (calling Barack "Osama" is an exception).

I do have an issue with cops. For the most part, not on a personal level (it's killing me not to name names). Police forces in America began as a tool to keep slaves on plantations, and not much has changed since then. The cops are here to keep "order" for the government, and I feel that the people should be doing that for themselves. I think a better job would be done by the people than by armed thugs.

I hope I'm not offending you personally, that's not my aim here, I'm just trying to clarify my opinion for you.

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Oh goodness, file this one

Oh goodness, file this one away OC and Norm!

...not much has changed since then.

...than by armed thugs.

And a joke:

Chelsea Clinton went over to Iraq to talk with our troops and ask them some questions. During her interaction with the troops, she asked what they were most scared of over there. Their response --The things we are most scared of is Osama, Obama and Yo Mamma.

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Yeah

honestly I'm trying not to get involved with the law enforcement thread situations. I know that it gets me riled up and I don't like being that way so I'm just trying to glance over it and not take it personally. Rob's a really nice guy (if you ever have the chance to meet him)...not that it makes a huge difference. I've come to realize that police will always be looked at this way and the sooner I stop caring, the sooner I'll feel better about people that feel that way.

The joke was pretty funny though :)

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EG

well I just blew coffee all over my screen.

Rob, were all good, I think. 

 "I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure."  Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986

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I hope I don't offend too

I hope I don't offend too much. I should probably be more sensitive. You really have nothing to worry about, anyhow, my views are not exactly the views of the majority.

Question: You HAVE to choose one. A.) We do away with cops, or, B.)We ban guns completely (like England). I can't wait to find out which you pick!

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I'm interested to know what you think I'll choose

Or was that more directed at Olycop?
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I think you'll choose cops

I think you'll choose cops also.
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Your insight serves you well. Bury your feelings deep down, Rob.

Cops cannot protect everyone.
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Easy one

Do away with cops.

"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit.  It's the only way to be sure."  Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986

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Good answer!

Good answer!
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But I love that show. They

But I love that show. They keep cancelling all the good ones.
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Even the reruns are good

I love the old episodes from the late 80's early 90's
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One of my favorite Cops

One of my favorite Cops moment involved a guy who was already cuffed but still struggling. They were trying to get him in the car when he kicked out, catching a female cop square in the chest and knocking her back. One of the other cops grabbed him by both feet and yanked him out, sending him crashing onto his cuffed wrists on the concrete.

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Yeah, that's rad!!

Violence is sooo cool!!
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It's always nice to see that you're catching on

 ;)
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I truly believe the judge

I truly believe the judge wanted to proceed and hold these individuals accountable.  Too bad our court system, particularly the PA's office, flubbed it up.  Oh well, you'll see many of the same faces in our courts in the near future for the same or similar charges.

Janet, just a quick point to make about confidentiality.  LISTSERV lists are not confidential.  To be confidential, the message would need to be marked accordingly and some type of authentication mechinism would need to be in place to confirm the message hadn't been breached.

I do think they should have been forthcoming with their source, from a moral standpoint, but legally speaking, they were in the clear (because the mail wasn't confidential).

By the way, who uses e-mail to communicate confidential documents and data?  Unless you've got a solution (back office type) no way in hell.  Clients (outlook, etc.) should never be part of a rights management solution - other than to be the verification endpoint.

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Well, this list-serv was invitation only, and someone....

... who wasn't invited ended up on it. Without an investigation, it's very difficult to assess whether or not there was misconduct on the part of the prosecutor's office. What have they got to hide?
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Oh, and additionally...

When the in-camera hearing about the breach of security of the list-serv that led to sensitive materials ending up in the hands of the prosecutor was ordered by the judge, Larry Hildes, one of the defense attorneys asked that a neutral computer expert be present in order to explain technical issues, such as the ones you have just raised, to the judge and others present. The judge liked this idea, and agreed. I must admit I don't understand the technical issues terribly well, and I concur with Larry Hildes and the judge that having an expert present would be necessary to facilitate an investigation into what happened, and who did it.

However, this hearing is not going to happen, after all, due to the dismissal of charges.

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I bet they do have something

I bet they do have something to hide.  The consequences would likely be nothing more than a slap on the wrist, but the prosecution was looking to do an end-around, no doubt.  I am curious about how they gained access.  Though, my gut tells me it wasn't a hack.
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Maybe just a slap on the wrist

Or maybe disbarment. Straume looked pretty uncomfortable when Dubuisson was reading the list of questions he would have to answer at the in camera hearing, what is the name and place of employment of the owners of two email addresses that were on this list-serv without authorization, what other communications from that list are in the possession of the prosecutors, and so forth. And I mentioned before, the prosecutors didn't put THAT much energy into arguing against dismissal.
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 I'm not privileged to the

 I'm not privileged to the details, but I'm guessing that all these legal wranglings were more for show than anything, politics being what it is.

Anonymously Larry No Longer Muted

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