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Submitted by jlw on Tue, 06/12/2007 - 7:11pm.
Judge Susan Dubuisson dismissed charges against 16 defendants charged with criminal trespass during the anti-war demonstrations at the Port of Olympia in May of 2006. Judge Dubuisson found that there had been "gross negligence" on the part of the prosecutor's office in the discovery process. Seven motions were heard at the pre-trial hearing today, including a motion to compel the prosecutor's office to disclose, in camera, the identity of their "informant," who passed along legal work product from a closed list-serv used by the defendants and counsel. This dissemination of information regarding jurors, obtained by the prosecutor's office from this list-serv, led to the earlier mistrial of the port protesters in late March of 2007. Because the case has been dismissed, the in camera hearing with the judge, prosecutors, and representatives of the Thurston County Sheriff's office, tentatively scheduled for this week, will not occur, and the identity of the "informant" who leaked information from the defendants' list-serv to the prosecutor's office will not be disclosed. Questions of prosecutorial misconduct have also been laid to rest with this dismissal.Judge Dubuisson heard arguments for seven motions at the pre-trial hearing which began at 3:00. At 4:30, she called a recess to deliberate. After the hearing resumed just before 5 p.m., she delivered her decisions on the motions, and argument ensued. It wasn't until after she decided to hold an in-camera hearing on the issue of the "informant," delaying her decision on the motion regarding prosecutorial misconduct, that the motion to dismiss was seriously entertained. Defendants have had a great deal of difficulty in obtaining discovery all along; the most recent incident, which led to dismissal of charges, involved confidential memos from the Sheriff's office, one dated June 3, 2006, that were not received by defendants and their counsel until as late as June 8, 2007. In order to exercise their right to a speedy trial (within 90 days of the mistrial), defendants were scheduled to be tried prior to June 27th, giving them very little time to prepare. Judge Dubuisson declared that she was forced to choose between the defendants' right to a fair trial, and their right to a speedy trial. Prosecutor Debra Eurich was replaced today by Jim Powers, who lost to Anne Hirsch in his November 2006 bid for a Thurston County Superior Court judgeship. Powers, who represented the prosecutor's office along with Steve Schraume, argued rather ineffectively against the motion for dismissal, stating that discovery delays were due to staff transitions. When defendants objected to submission of a witness list with almost three times as many witnesses listed as were named on the prosecution's witness list for the first trial, Powers argued that he "works that way," and the defendants probably wouldn't have bothered to interview witnesses, anyway. The defense argued that a great deal of effort had been put into trying to interview witnesses. Phan Nguyen, who represented himself pro se, described an incident in which two sheriffs had refused to be interviewed by him without his going through the prosecutor's office, which obstructed his efforts. Judge Dubuisson remarked, while delivering her decision to dismiss, that the defendants, particularly the pro se defendants, had worked "aggressively" on their case, and she did not concur with Powers' argument that the defendants wouldn't have bothered to interview witnesses even if they'd been given more time. She did, however, also express regret that she had to take the action of dismissing charges. The defendants and their supporters reacted jubilantly when Judge Dubuisson announced that she was dismissing the charges (See photos on my flickr.com site). The prosecutors looked appropriately downcast, but as they lugged away their boxes of files on dolleys, I had to wonder to myself... losing this case isn't exactly good for their careers, but what might have come to light if they had been compelled to reveal the details of their obtaining confidential emails? Folks Celebrate
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Holy shit!
Submitted by Summerisle on Tue, 06/12/2007 - 7:28pm.And congratulations to you, too!
Submitted by jlw on Tue, 06/12/2007 - 8:27pm.Janet
Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Tue, 06/12/2007 - 7:38pm.Yes....
Submitted by jlw on Tue, 06/12/2007 - 8:04pm.Great News
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Tue, 06/12/2007 - 7:55pm.Thanks, Rob!!
Submitted by jlw on Tue, 06/12/2007 - 8:32pm.Doesnt the Port owe the City some $$?
Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 12:26am.Yeah. TJ brought that up.
Submitted by jlw on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 12:29am.No way the port should pay
Submitted by Ehver Green on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 11:42am.Did he (Nguyen)
Submitted by OlyCop on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 8:01am.subpoena the Deputies? I never comply with an interview request by the defense unless I'm under subpoena or get the blessing of the prosecutor's office. There is no legal requirement to comply with a "request" so why do so? It only serves to likely weaken the prosecution's case.
Phan Nguyen, who represented himself pro se, described an incident in which two sheriffs had refused to be interviewed by him without his going through the prosecutor's office, which obstructed his efforts.
Sure sounds like the ball was dropped by someone. I wonder if it was accidental or intentional?
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986
Just how closely do cops work with prosecutors?
Submitted by Crenshaw Sepulveda on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 8:27am.I may be naive, even though I was married to a prosecutor in Pierce County, but isn't the truth the TRUTH and the job of the police is not to "help" the procecutor but rather to tell the truth while under oath. If the truth weakens the prosecutor's case it really is of no concern to the police. Do police actually sit there and wonder if they are weakening the prosecutor's case by telling the truth or giving accurate testimony?
"I would make it impossible for the covetous and avaricious to utterly impoverish the poor. The rich can take care of themselves."
^@^
If you arrested someone, that you KNOW
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 8:44am.Norm - In your example I'm
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 8:46am.If you know the person isn't guilty
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 8:48am.In the case in question I
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 9:01am.Not so fast. People had a right to protest, as long as they did it legally. If they want to block streets, chain themselves to fences or destroy property then by all means they should be held accountable, and if they're cussing out officers or doing anything else to bring attention to themselves they shouldn't be surprised if they're watched closely. But for those who weren't breaking any laws and just happened to be caught in the collateral sweep, or were singled out for being vocal enough, they shouldn't be convicted of anything they didn't do.
I'm not saying I know the facts on the 16, or 22. I heard that most of them had nothing to do with tearing down the gate. Again, I don't know. Without videotape, or plenty of testimony from witnesses besides just the military or police, there's enough for reasonable doubt.
Did you miss it?
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 10:28am.Well, I saw a handful arrested myself. I have a few pictures even. Oh, and police are allowed to testify, I'm not sure why it wasn't brought up. Beyond that though, read up on their "necessity defense". They admit to breaking the law, they just wanted to argue that it was justified because of Iraq. Right there is an admission of guilt. Did you not see the pictures/video of folks lying down and being told that they are tresspassing and then arresting them? How about those that resisted? I have a lovely couple of pictures of a guy shoving a state trooper and getting tossed to the ground and paintballed with pepper spray.
Had I known the prosecutors office was too busy with their skirt chasing to form a decent case I may have sent my pictures in to help them out. After this and the DeGroff(sp?) case I've lost all faith in this county's prosecutor office.
No, I haven't seen any of
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 10:47am.Shove a trooper, get punk'd. I'm alright with that. Admit you're guilty, I'll take your word for it.
All I'm asking, and what I'd ask if I were on a jury, was if any of the 24 were the specific ones you mention in the examples. If so then yes they should be big enough to deal with potential consequences.
No one was charged with assault...
Submitted by jlw on Thu, 06/14/2007 - 8:00am.Seems if it was such an open
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 11:03am.Not due to lack of evidence
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 11:37am.Judge Dubuisson found that there had been "gross negligence" on the part of the prosecutor's office in the discovery process.
.....most recent incident, which led to dismissal of charges, involved confidential memos from the Sheriff's office, one dated June 3, 2006, that were not received by defendants and their counsel until as late as June 8, 2007.
....Powers argued that he "works that way," and the defendants probably wouldn't have bothered to interview witnesses, anyway.
.....Judge Dubuisson remarked, while delivering her decision to dismiss, that the defendants, particularly the pro se defendants, had worked "aggressively" on their case, and she did not concur with Powers' argument that the defendants wouldn't have bothered to interview witnesses even if they'd been given more time. She did, however, also express regret that she had to take the action of dismissing charges.
Ed Holm, Jim Powers, and Co "screwed the pooch". It sounds like the Sheriff's office was derelict as well. It wasn't a lack of evidence, it was a lack of sharing the evidence. It was a lack of brain power(no pun intended) on Jim Powers part. I'm all for the truth. Had the PA office been forward and truthful about the whole thing and this had gone to a jury trial the case should have been a slam dunk. The 22's defense was ruled non-admissible. If the jury followed the rules they would have all been convicted. I blame the PA's office for this mockery of justice.
The blame I hold for the accused is secondary. They know they breaking the law. They got away with it because of our local justice system. They are cheering because the PA's office is a bunch of idiots.
No Slam Dunk
Submitted by jlw on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 5:17pm.The fact that the someone hacked into the defendants' list-serv, changed the moderator status, and sent confidential materials to the prosecutors means that the prosecutor's office may well have seen EVERY email on that list. Many people feel that they held onto that jurors worksheet the same way you might hang on to the ace of trump until you really need it in a game of whist. Personally, I have to wonder which is a more serious crime: lying down on the pavement at the Port of Olympia, or breaching attorney-client privilege and spying on someone else's email. Too bad we may never know the real story behind the security breach of that list-serv.
I should rephrase
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 5:32pm.It SHOULD have been a slam dunk. Again this can easily be blamed on the prosecutors office and the sheriff's office. There were how many potential witnesses around watching the 22 lay on the pavement? I personally saw a law enforcement officer taping everything, good piece of evidence there. I didn't see anything in the paper asking for witnesses to events down at the port, I would have testified in a heartbeat. If the jury, pre-trial, was not convinced that these 22 were guilty then the prosecutors office needs to get some better people in there. Tresspassing? How much easier could it get? It just blows my mind.
I'm not sure about the listserv thing. I do have to wonder why the heck you would send confidential information that way. Did some of the 22 not have a mailing address? Phones? If someone did hack in it wasn't right, but the 22 and their attorney's were a little stupid to think that would be a secure way of sending confidential information.
So let's just hash it out considering there's no hope of prosecuting the 22. I want to know how many of them will actually step-up and admit they were breaking the law and were guilty. How about this Janet, next time we are at the broho, can you honestly look me in the eye and claim that these folks were NOT breaking the law?
For one, email is faster and cheaper
Submitted by jlw on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 6:12pm.No, they did not prove
Submitted by Ehver Green on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 6:21pm.No, they did not prove that. The proved they are smarter than the prosecution, but that's not saying much!
I don't buy that the listserv was closed and moderated and if it was, who was providing this level of security? Was their an agreement (service level or breach level)? Hacked is a strong word - was the system truly compromised (proof?) or was it inadvertantly left open? Big difference...
Again
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 6:26pm.If someone did hack in it wasn't right....
I agreed with you. If you are having such a hard time with it I expect it should be investigated, maybe since the 22 are so smart they can find some proof as to who did it and press some charges. I'll wait around for that.
So Janet, you ducked the question. Can you look me in the eye and tell me that they did not commit a crime? I don't care if they are the Pope, did they commit a crime?
Proved they were certainly not stupid? No, they did bring show the world how incredibly inept the Thurston county legal system is. Unless the only reason they decided to fight the charge was because they knew that the county would flub their case.
So I've put down the prosecutors all day. I really want to hear your opinion on the actual guilt or innocence of your friends.
I was there and witnessed their "crime"
Submitted by jlw on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 9:49pm.*gasp*
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 10:06pm.I was there and witnessed their "crime"
You could have testified for the prosecutors! ;)
Seriously I'm not going to bring the flying objects into the conversation (they were there though). I was planning on only focusing on the trespassing charge(s). I would call it trespassing also.....and they got away with it. Not something I admire people for.
Well, we differ on this
Submitted by jlw on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 10:30pm.WTF?If the jury, pre-trial,
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 06/14/2007 - 1:58am.If the jury, pre-trial, was not convinced that these 22 were guilty then the prosecution needs to get better people in there.
Again, WTF?
If any juror is convinced pre-trial on guilt or innocence then they don't belong there. You're either saying that better prosecutors would load the jury with biased people, or the only good juror is one biased for the prosecution. Not cool, hope it's just me misreading again.
So true, Merwyn
Submitted by jlw on Thu, 06/14/2007 - 8:08am.There is an interesting point about jury selection to be made here. Because there were so many defendants and each got a certain number of peremptory challenges during the jury selection process, the defendants had an advantage in jury selection. And I am sure that they did their best to eliminate potential jurors with an obvious pro-war, pro-law-enforcement bias. For instance, I'm sure they would have dismissed Norm and Olycop from the jury after questioning them a bit, using one of their many peremptory challenges.
This was definitely an advantage for the defendants. Many people believed that part of the prosecution's plan was to sever the cases before the re-trial (and the prosecution did, indeed, file a motion to sever), so that they would have more control over jury selection, and be able to hand-pick a jury more sympathetic to the war and more inclined to side with law enforcement, than the original jury in the mistrial had been.
Janet's quote:
Submitted by Norm on Thu, 06/14/2007 - 8:42am.When the jury was polled at the conclusion of the mistrial, they were leaning 7 to 1 in favor of acquittal -- and this was BEFORE the defense presented their case
That was what I was speaking of. "Pre-trial" would have been my own issue with using the wrong term.
Too bad we may never know
Submitted by Ehver Green on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 5:35pm.Too bad we may never know the real story behind the security breach of that list-serv.
Exactly. You have no idea who this person was or what side they were on. It may have been a mole. It may have been the teenage son of someone on the side of the prosecution. It may have been someone negotiating with the PA for lesser charges or no charges at all (a defendant).
The common denominator here is people representing themselves. Any real lawyer would have stopped listserv conversation *IMMEDIATELY* upon finding out this was a major means of communication. It just doesn't make sense...
All things aside, the judge did the right thing. I'm not happy about it and I think some people who deserved a reasonable punishment are walking away from it. The world will stay in tact and it is likely they will get their day in court another time. Karma has a way of playing catch up.
There were "real lawyers" on that list-serv
Submitted by jlw on Thu, 06/14/2007 - 8:09am.And they were OK with that
Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 06/14/2007 - 2:24pm.Truth, honor, and professionalism work for me.
Submitted by Crenshaw Sepulveda on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 9:00am.It is true that police are human. As humans they will make mistakes, forget things, mis-remember things. I am unlikely to accuse the police of shoddy work, they appear to be very professional and well trained. I'm unlikely to say the police are dishonorable if I go by my experience with Olycop and other police that I am friends with. I will only say that the truth is the only thing one must be concerned with and the truth should be nothing but that, even if it damages the prosecutor's case. The procesutor and defense have many tools at their disposal but no party should have a tool that so carefully can shape a lie into the truth. Leave the untruths to the guilty, that is their domain, but the prosecution and poliice should always deal in what is true.
"I would make it impossible for the covetous and avaricious to utterly impoverish the poor. The rich can take care of themselves."
^@^
I agree with you
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 10:30am.Unfortunately I'm just pissy about our current state of the judicial system in this county...heck in this country even.
Telling the truth is ultimately the best policy. I wish the criminals would figure that one out.
In response to Olycop's question
Submitted by jlw on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 8:50am.One of the defense attorneys told me after the hearing that the prosecutor's office has been really sloppy and careless about getting discovery to defendants on time, to the correct address, "forgetting" to send things, etc., and he hoped this decision would encourage the office to comply with the rules concerning procedure for producing discovery. There was some question about whether the delay in producing certain documents, for instance the one that was over a year old, was due to misconduct on the part of the prosecutor's office, or by the Sheriff's Department. It couldn't really be determined at the hearing, but it was clear that somewhere along the chain, a governmental agency had either intentionally or negligently failed to produce the discovery that the defendants were legally entitled to.
Best line ever
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 8:50am.To answer OlyCop's question
Submitted by Phan on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 3:08pm.I'll answer OlyCop's question and then make a few general observations:
I had attempted to schedule an interview with Det. Mike Hirte and Chief Jim Chamberlain of the Sheriff's Office. I knew they were involved in the case and that they had been in communication with the prosecution, but I was not sure (and still not sure) to what extent, and the prosecution was refusing to say, claiming that they had nothing to do with the case.
At the time, I did not even know what agency Det. Hirte worked for. I asked him in person, and not only did he refuse to answer that basic question, but he refused to provide me with any contact info! I didn't know what his first name was, or even how to spell his last name.
At least two other lawyers contacted the prosecutor's office asking for more information on Det. Hirte and requesting to schedule an interview with him. The prosecutor denied the request, claiming it was unrelated to the case and that it went against "the public interest." We filed motions to compel the prosecution to allow us to do so, and those motions, which were filed as early as April, were not heard in court until June 12.
Despite the prosecution's continued claims that Hirte and Chamberlain had nothing to do with the case, Det. Hirte was added to the prosecution's list of witnesses last week, with no explanation why. Trials were to begin as soon as June 18. We had just been given a list of at least 15 additional witnesses that the prosecution may or may not be calling up and a bunch of extra police reports, including one that someone had been sitting on for over a year. I should qualify the "we" by noting that some of the counsels and pro se defendants weren't even given these documents at all.
All of this would have been bad enough, except that it was an ongoing issue through the enitre year of court proceedings, all of which we documented in numerous briefs throughout the case.
There was a police videotape that we asked for and that the prosecution claimed no knowledge of and no interest in. Yet when we tried to acquire the videotape on our own, the prosecution suddenly became interested in it and told us the tape was destroyed. Then when we scheduled an interview with the police officer who shot the tape, the prosecutor rescheduled the time and date of the interview without asking us and also moved the interview to the prosecutor's office. Then when we arrived for the rescheduled interview, the prosecutor tried to tell us which lawyers and pro se defendants could interview the officer, and which ones couldn't.
This went on and on. Later, during trial, the prosecution purposely withheld information that I believe would have averted a mistrial. However, the prosecution knew that it was losing the case and wanted a mistrial in order to start over. This isn't mere suspicion. I reviewed the transcripts and could clearly see the prosecution's gradual maneuvering into a mistrial. This was further corroborated by the prosecution's sudden changes of tactics for a second trial, which the judge also noted with concern.
Although I'm glad the case is over, I am disappointed that the prosecution deprived us of the opportunity to be exonerated by a jury in the first trial. And that means a lot of people are going to complain that we were hardened criminals who got off on a technicality. Then again, if we had won at trial, the same folks would just complain that the prosecution lost by incompetence and not by the merits of the case. After all, we were arrested, and that's guilty enough.
Beyond that, I remain astounded that people would think a mere allegation of misdemeanor trespass, 2nd degree, amounts to $29,000 of damage, violence against police, putting soldiers at risk, demoralizing the troops, and providing aid and comfort to "The Enemy," and that various comments (not here) have suggested that we should have been beaten up (some were), run over, or even killed. The Port of Olympia even held us responsible for actions supposedly committed while we were sitting in jail!
People have put up a fuss over unsubstantiated damage to a fence and how we supposedly instigated some sort of violence, without recognizing the extent of violence that we as a country are exporting to other parts of the world -- or the extent of violence that has been inflicted by and inflicted upon the 3rd Brigade, 2nd Infantry Division as a result of the successful departure of the USNS Pomeroy from the Port of Olympia last year, prior to the 3rd Brigade's own deployment a month later. (Almost 40 soldiers from the 3-2 Brigade have been killed since deployment, unknown number wounded, unknown number of Iraqis killed or wounded)
Some people may disagree with our tactics, especially when they have crazy ideas about what actually went on at the Port. But they should lead by example, not by the weight of their keystrokes.
Finally, we are still concerned about the unresolved issue of unknown government agencies spying on the constitutionally-protected activities of local activists, not to mention spying on confidential attorney-client work privilege (and here, I'll note that we know some gov't agencies monitor OlyBlog, and I'm not talking about OlyCop). This issue broke open during the Oly 22 trial, and it may have been partially resolved if the case had continued. Instead we will be pursuing our investigation of this matter through other channels. Legally, of course.
Thanks Phan,
Submitted by OlyCop on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 3:39pm.for the clarification, it sounds like you did your job very well. Too bad both sides were denied their time in court.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986
oly22 dismissal
Submitted by Tenzing on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 9:27am.The Necessity Defense
Submitted by jlw on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 9:36am.CS
Submitted by OlyCop on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 10:06am.On most cases that go to trial, an Officer/Detective assists the prosecutor with prosecution of the case.
Frequently, a defense attorney wants to meet with the arresting officer or witness officers. The purpose of this is to find holes in the case for their client. And anything the officer said, will likely be used to impeach him/her on the stand later.
There rarely would be any benefit to the state's/city's case to meet with the defense attorney, so I don't. And certainly not without discussing it with the prosecutor first.
It does sound like sloppy work on the prosecutor's side.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986
Do you believe that people
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 1:23pm.What kind of perks or bonuses,if any, do OPD officers recieve for their collars being found guilty versus being found not guilty?
If another cop, or friend or family member was being tried for something and you happened to be the arresting officer, would you work as closely with the prosecution as you would against your average arrest?
Rob,
Submitted by OlyCop on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 3:45pm.Police are not neutral. We are tasked with investigating crime, collecting evidence, interviewing suspects/witnesses, and arresting the offenders based on a pretty low burden of proof, probable cause. We build a case against the suspect, definitely not neutral. If the investigation indicates the suspect is likely not guilty we move on to another suspect. If it shows he/she is guilty, we build on that in hopes we can attain the required burden of proof for a conviction.
Prosecutors and defense attorney's are not neutral either. One side tries for a conviction, the other side tries to prevent it.
Judges and juries are supposed to be neutral. They listen to both sides and make a decision based on a burden of proof that is much harder to attain, beyond a reasonable doubt.
Defense attorneys will do what they need to, to save their client, or at least minimize his legal liability. Defense attorneys are sneeky, just like the cops are. And are no way neutral in their piece of the courtroom pie.
The protestors didn't get off because they were not guilty or innocent. They got off due to screw-ups. Just because you are found to be not guilty doesn't mean you're innocent either.
So Rob, was O.J. Simpson guilty of murder? Regardless of what the jury said, do you believe he was guilty, or was he innocent?
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986
I heard Goldman wants to
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 3:46pm.Thank you for clarifying.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 06/14/2007 - 12:13pm.I think by focusing on the supposed guilt of a suspect, bias is created in your mind, and that bias can blind. A few years back, this very nation was actually convinced that Oswald acted alone. We've seen mountains of photographic, video, and ballistic evidence, as well as eye-witness testimony that leans toward more than one gunperson, but in the heat of the moment, with Kennedy's body cooling off, and sadness and anger sweeping the nation, people wanted someone to blame.
Is OJ guilty? In my opinion, or according to the courts? And which holds more water? My opinion: He's an abusive murdering scumbag. The courts: not guilty. My opinion won't get him convicted. Your opinion, as a cop, however, can. I think you have a great deal of power, and you know it, over peoples lives. I don't want to get into whether I feel it's justified or not, that's a whole nother conversation. Just like in the rape case a few months back, a mentally ill man was a perfect suspect, he even happened to be houseless at the time, bonus. Everything pointed to him being guilty because the cops investigating it wanted him to be guilty. For good reasons I'm sure. To provide closure, and most importantly justice, to the family of the victim and the community as a whole. Big mistakes were made, I believe, because of this intrusive bias that seeps into police investigations. Sometimes it seems that just busting somebody and being able to tell the paper or the City or the public that "we got 'em", is more important than the truth.
Whatever Rob
Submitted by OlyCop on Thu, 06/14/2007 - 1:00pm.your little tirade here is similar to mine about the homeless a couple months ago. But I won't lose my mind like you did and "go off on you" like you did me.
As for the guy that raped that little girl, yeah one of ours arrested the wrong guy, but ultimately the right guy was arrested. And remember it wasn't only a cop that got the wrong guy into jail. The prosecutor had his/her hands on the case, and a judge approved the probable cause.
I don't think anyone ever said mistakes can't be made in the criminal justice system. It does happen, and unfortuately people are serving time in prison for stuff they didn't do. Perhaps since you are perfect, you should become a cop and right all the wrongs being done here in the US.It's real easy to sit in the cheap seats and throw rocks. Yes you point out one error, a significant error, that got a guy arrested, and ultimately the mental health care he deserved and needed. But I don't think I have ever heard you sing the praises of law enforcement for all the good work done.
It's real clear you have issues with law enforcement, and I doubt you will get over them soon, if ever. But don't be poking all of law enforcement in the eye with the stick because of some isolated mistakes. Just like not all homeless are album cover material for the Aqualung album, not all cops are $#%*ups.
As for these folks who won't be held accountable for their law violations, I'm guessing they're happy the prosecutor screwed up. Because, anyone that was there know they violated the law. If there was any doubt there would have been all kinds of motions with claims of false arrest, etc. I believe Janet is likely correct, they would have been aquitted. That is the trend in this part of the country, i.e. Bremerton area w/Bangor, etc. And they likely had a real good chance to get a jury more sympathetic to their cause/plight.
I have always said, if you're guilty you want a jury trial. And if you're innocent you want a bench trial.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986
I'm with Olycop on this one (mostly)...
Submitted by Phil Owen on Fri, 06/15/2007 - 10:22am....with a few exceptions.
David Lucas Lynch probably didn't get the mental health care he needed. Most likely scenario: When the charges against him were dropped, the hospital found that it had little cause to find him in "immanent danger" of causing harm to self or others. I'll tell you, I've seen people do some unbelievable shit without getting committed. So the hospital probably booted him right out onto the street, possibly without even the courtesy of a bus ticket back to Olympia.
Now, none of this is the fault of the police (unfortunately, civil rights attorneys would be the more appropriate target). I also want to say, as I've said before , that I don't think the cops were being unreasonable when they arrested Lynch. They found a dishevelled mentally ill homeless man a few short blocks from the crime scene, not long after the crime occurred. He didn't answer their questions clearly. After the news article came out, there were a hell of a lot of very reasonable people (including Lynch's former roommates) who assumed he was guilty. One of his former roommates said to me, "I feel so bad for having believed he was guilty. He's such a sweet guy. But he also went downhill really seriously... and when the newspaper printed that story my heart sank." (It may have helped that when the cops came to question Lynch's old roommates, and to find the whereabouts of his camp, they told the roommates that the DNA evidence proved his guilt. As Olycop said, cops are "sneaky". This is how they get the evidence that actually does prove guilt.)
It should also be noted that the greater injustice by far was perpetuated by the newspaper. When Lynch was cleared by DNA, the cops and the prosecutor dropped the charges, went after a new suspect, and pursued the case vigorously. The same cannot be said of the newspaper. After being smeared in sensational issue after sensational issue, only a brief mention cleared Lynch in the paper. The new suspect (whose DNA DID prove guilt) didn't get photos of his face and his home plastered across the newspaper under bold-print headlines. His reading list and his journal stayed out of the news. After all, he was a rather normal looking, presumably middle class kid. Nothing sensational there.
(EDIT: I haven't said enough about the media here. I want to make very clear that I no longer believe that the journalist's field, whether TV or print, is an effective tool of democracy. It is, rather, an effective forum for gossip. The news media are more a hindrance to our society that a good these days. In fact, they are downright slimey. I would encourage every journalist to quit his or her job, in the name of the common good. Maybe bloggers will do a better job.)
Now, I don't find anything surprising in Olycop's comment that cops aren't neutral. They aren't paid to be neutral. They're paid to find a suspect and build a case. Judges are paid to be neutral. Defense attorneys are paid to be biased in the opposite direction from the cops and the prosecution. Here's the catch: poor people don't get real defense attorneys. They get what has been commonly dubbed "public pretenders". They see rich people (read: OJ Simpson, Ted Kennedy, etc) literally get away with bloody murder, but the poor get busted every time they sit down within ten feet of a beer bottle on a sidewalk. For the most part, the poor are really afraid of the police... because they know what Olycop said to be true, and they also know that they have no defense. The rich are aware that cops aren't neutral; but they aren't afraid because they have the capability for a strong defense.
This is not the fault of the police. It is the fault of the political system that robs the poor of every kind of justice. Cops are just doing their job.
The Canaanite's Call
Amen!
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 06/15/2007 - 10:26am.Now, I don't find anything surprising in Olycop's comment that cops aren't neutral. They aren't paid to be neutral. They're paid to find a suspect and build a case. Judges are paid to be neutral. Defense attorneys are paid to be biased in the opposite direction from the cops and the prosecution. Here's the catch: poor people don't get real defense attorneys. They get what has been commonly dubbed "public pretenders". They see rich people (read: OJ Simpson, Ted Kennedy, etc) literally get away with bloody murder, but the poor get busted every time they sit down within ten feet of a beer bottle on a sidewalk. For the most part, the poor are really afraid of the police... because they know what Olycop said to be true, and they also know that they have no defense. The rich are aware that cops aren't neutral; but they aren't afraid because they have the capability for a strong defense.
This is not the fault of the police. It is the fault of the political system that robs the poor of every kind of justice. Cops are just doing their job.
That was awesome Phil. Regarding the media, if you haven't had a chance to listen to the Gore "assault on reason" speech done in Seattle. PLEASE try and find it.
Hehe...
Submitted by Phil Owen on Fri, 06/15/2007 - 10:37am.Aww, Norm! Are you turning into an Al Gore fan?
The Canaanite's Call
begrudgingly yes
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 06/15/2007 - 10:43am.I believe with the right
Submitted by Ehver Green on Fri, 06/15/2007 - 11:25am.Normy, Normy, tisk, tisk
Submitted by OlyCop on Fri, 06/15/2007 - 2:35pm.you are out of my will, lol. Invasion of the body snatchers must have come to Normy's house.
I would vote for Hillary before Osama Obama or Uncle Albert, and you all know what I think of the Clintons.
The Repubs don't have much to offer yet, but it looks like my choice will throw his hat in the ring soon.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986
I have been a little groggy lately
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 06/15/2007 - 2:54pm....I thought it was the benadryl but maybe it's something else!
You'd vote for Hillary before Gore?
I figured you were hoping to vote for Fred. Am I right?
Yup,
Submitted by OlyCop on Fri, 06/15/2007 - 4:26pm.Fred is my man. And really the only Rep that stands a chance beating a demo this time around. Several of the Reps are demos in Rep clothing anyway.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986
random thoughts..
Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Fri, 06/15/2007 - 10:58am.OPD doesnt get let off of the hook with the whole Lynch debacle. Olympia Police Commander Tor Bjornstad, himself, took the lead in presenting the whole spectacle.
It was inexcusable to present a pending rape investigation this way. Totally unproffesional. The were not even 100% certain that the crime occured, let alone if they had the right guy, but there is the police commander, himself, leading a tour of the homeless freakshow for the media.
I know the hacks at the Olympian are to blame here as well, but there needs to be some accountablity with OPD too..
When OPD finally caught Peter Jacob Inouye (a 24yr old, gun loving momma's boy), all of the coverage miraculously ended. Police Commander Tor Bjornstad led no grand tour of Peter Jacob Inouye's mothers house for all to see. No follow up by the Olympian as of yet.
Strange..
As a 27y/o gun loving
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 06/15/2007 - 11:07am.thats what he was..
Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Fri, 06/15/2007 - 11:08am.i wonder what the status of this case is right now?
Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Fri, 06/15/2007 - 11:11am.Cheeze Whiz, I always
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Fri, 06/15/2007 - 11:20am.Kid, I was writing in cursive and multiplying up to 12 when you were born.
D'oh!
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 06/15/2007 - 11:37am.So
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 06/15/2007 - 11:36am.It doesnt matter who me or you thought was guilty..
Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Fri, 06/15/2007 - 11:47am.OPD would have been
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 06/15/2007 - 12:41pm.OPD would have been irresponsible had they not investigated this kid. As Phil already stated, he was not far from the crime scene, living where he was not supposed to, and could not answer their questions. That's enough resonable suspicion for an arrest. Once they further investigated and found some of the things in his shelter they had even MORE reason to investigate. The only thing that was wrong with the whole picture (other than the media frenzy) was that the guy didn't fit the physical description. If you add in things like, terror, shock, lack of lighting, age group etc you can see why they had him arrested for questioning at the least. I do think they should have not counted their chickens before the hatched and put out the picture that the victim described rather than high-fiving (at least seemingly) and moving on.
We aint disagreeing..
Submitted by bubba z (not verified) on Fri, 06/15/2007 - 1:22pm.True
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 06/15/2007 - 1:25pm.But don't be poking all of
Submitted by Meta Hogan on Fri, 06/15/2007 - 11:31pm.But don't be poking all of law enforcement in the eye with the stick because of some isolated mistakes.
That's Rob, pokin' eyes and takin' names.
OC
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 06/18/2007 - 12:49pm.I appreciate the dialogue that we have here. I wouldn't have any dialogue with cops if it weren't for the blog, and I think it's cool. I have nothing against you, you seem to be a good person, you care deeply about your family and you are usually rational in your beliefs and the expression of them (calling Barack "Osama" is an exception).
I do have an issue with cops. For the most part, not on a personal level (it's killing me not to name names). Police forces in America began as a tool to keep slaves on plantations, and not much has changed since then. The cops are here to keep "order" for the government, and I feel that the people should be doing that for themselves. I think a better job would be done by the people than by armed thugs.
I hope I'm not offending you personally, that's not my aim here, I'm just trying to clarify my opinion for you.
Oh goodness, file this one
Submitted by Ehver Green on Mon, 06/18/2007 - 2:02pm.Oh goodness, file this one away OC and Norm!
...not much has changed since then.
...than by armed thugs.
And a joke:
Chelsea Clinton went over to Iraq to talk with our troops and ask them some questions. During her interaction with the troops, she asked what they were most scared of over there. Their response --The things we are most scared of is Osama, Obama and Yo Mamma.
Yeah
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 06/18/2007 - 3:14pm.honestly I'm trying not to get involved with the law enforcement thread situations. I know that it gets me riled up and I don't like being that way so I'm just trying to glance over it and not take it personally. Rob's a really nice guy (if you ever have the chance to meet him)...not that it makes a huge difference. I've come to realize that police will always be looked at this way and the sooner I stop caring, the sooner I'll feel better about people that feel that way.
The joke was pretty funny though :)
EG
Submitted by OlyCop on Mon, 06/18/2007 - 5:14pm.well I just blew coffee all over my screen.
Rob, were all good, I think.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986
I hope I don't offend too
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 06/18/2007 - 6:00pm.Question: You HAVE to choose one. A.) We do away with cops, or, B.)We ban guns completely (like England). I can't wait to find out which you pick!
I'm interested to know what you think I'll choose
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 06/18/2007 - 6:27pm.I think you'll choose cops
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 06/19/2007 - 10:40pm.Your insight serves you well. Bury your feelings deep down, Rob.
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 06/19/2007 - 10:54pm.Easy one
Submitted by OlyCop on Mon, 06/18/2007 - 7:40pm.Do away with cops.
"I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure." Ellen Ripley - Aliens 1986
Good answer!
Submitted by Ehver Green on Mon, 06/18/2007 - 8:14pm.But I love that show. They
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 06/20/2007 - 8:10am.Even the reruns are good
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 06/20/2007 - 11:10am.One of my favorite Cops
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 06/20/2007 - 11:19am.Yeah, that's rad!!
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 06/20/2007 - 5:15pm.It's always nice to see that you're catching on
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 06/20/2007 - 9:37pm.I truly believe the judge
Submitted by Ehver Green on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 2:03pm.I truly believe the judge wanted to proceed and hold these individuals accountable. Too bad our court system, particularly the PA's office, flubbed it up. Oh well, you'll see many of the same faces in our courts in the near future for the same or similar charges.
Janet, just a quick point to make about confidentiality. LISTSERV lists are not confidential. To be confidential, the message would need to be marked accordingly and some type of authentication mechinism would need to be in place to confirm the message hadn't been breached.
I do think they should have been forthcoming with their source, from a moral standpoint, but legally speaking, they were in the clear (because the mail wasn't confidential).
By the way, who uses e-mail to communicate confidential documents and data? Unless you've got a solution (back office type) no way in hell. Clients (outlook, etc.) should never be part of a rights management solution - other than to be the verification endpoint.
Well, this list-serv was invitation only, and someone....
Submitted by jlw on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 6:37pm.Oh, and additionally...
Submitted by jlw on Thu, 06/14/2007 - 12:47pm.However, this hearing is not going to happen, after all, due to the dismissal of charges.
I bet they do have something
Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 06/14/2007 - 2:30pm.Maybe just a slap on the wrist
Submitted by jlw on Thu, 06/14/2007 - 4:15pm.I'm not privileged to the
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Wed, 06/13/2007 - 8:51pm.I'm not privileged to the details, but I'm guessing that all these legal wranglings were more for show than anything, politics being what it is.
Anonymously Larry No Longer Muted