Oly2012 presents its self a citizen's group offering moderate, well-reasoned suggestions for the future of Olympia when in fact nothing is further from the truth. Oy2012 is a tiny group non-downtown residents who are getting much more press than their recycled and discreditied fantasies deserve. I apologies for quoting the enterty of their missive but I think the document must be taken in whole.
Introduction
When OLY 2012 formed, the members of the steering committee pledged to conduct independent reviews of the issues impacting the revitalization of downtown Olympia.
Over the past several months the steering committee has met with and talked to dozens of individuals and groups interested in improving Olympia’s downtown. We have confirmed that the majority of our area’s residents (Magically accomplished without talking or polling the majority of residents) love downtown and most are passionate about wanting it to be even better. (Don’t presume for me. I want to make downtown it worse!) Our community places a high value on access to the waterfront, including substantial view corridors between Budd Inlet and Capitol Lake. There is a clear desire for a “walkable” downtown with continuous streets of small retail shops, trees and flowers, good lighting and signage, adequate parking, nightclubs, and sidewalk cafes. Creating downtown housing for all ages and income levels will significantly increase the downtown economy and reduce the need for automobiles to get us to where we work, shop, and dine out.
We have listened carefully –to urban planners, environmentalists, downtown business and property owners, outdoor recreation enthusiasts, (Who?) City Council members, State Legislators, private developers, members of the arts community, and many local civic activists. Based on these conversations, the OLY 2012 steering committee has compiled many of the ideas we have heard into a collection of preliminary recommendations for downtown.
Listened perhaps but never changed their mind. Funny how everything they seem to have heard supports their conclusion that condos must be built in the isthmus. Oly2012 came out in favor of Triway proposal in their initial press release and haven’t looked back. Missing from that list of contributors are downtown residents, social service agencies, but most importantly non-politicians, the staffers and planners who actually understand the issues at hand in the re-zone proposal. I appears the conversations the steering committee had were not to research the possibilities but to lobby for what has been suggested and rejected before.
Because there is a proposed comprehensive plan amendment to re-zone height limits downtown coming before the City Council -- a proposal which has already divided our community -- we also feel a responsibility to weigh in on this proposal now. Thus, this document presents an initial vision for how the proposed re-zone might fit within a more comprehensive set of downtown proposals.
Again, Oly2012 restates it’s initial conclusion. Now onto the premises. This is priori reasoning at it’s naked best.
OLY 2012’s intent is to offer innovative ideas that will unite the community, not polarize it. Looking for compromise and consensus is consistent with our mission and belief statements.
Innovative ideas my butt. (Or Pam’s butt. See below) Every thing that follows is a rehash of trial bags of lighter than air gas that have already crashed and burned just as surely as the Hindenburg.
Improve Public Access to Shorelines
The City of Olympia and the State of Washington have set aside significant public space and public access on Capitol Lake, West Bay, East Bay, and almost all of the downtown Olympia shoreline except the working port. While residents and visitors now have access to much of the waterfront, they will eventually have free access to almost all of the shoreline and its water views in downtown Olympia. Percival Landing, home for many community events, and its underlying sea wall, needs repair or replacement. West Bay needs to be developed from its industrial past to its future as public parks and trails. These projects will take considerable public funds (my emphasis for considerable public funds is a recurrent theme of this document) to complete and deserve our support. We also encourage residents to support the private effort to develop Rotary Point Park on West Bay.
And just where will those funds come from? As Oly2012 points out tax revenues are limited by State ownership. Either the money will come from business owners through B&O taxes or property owners through property taxes. Either way, those funds will not come from Triway and it’s well-heeled tenants for many years.
Strengthen The City-State Partnership
Olympia is known for having one of the most beautiful settings for a capital city, as well as one of the most beautiful Capitol buildings in the country. Thousands of visitors come to the capitol every year, and improving the linkage between downtown and the capitol campus will benefit both the State and the City.
However, state government, Olympia’s major employer, is exempt from local property and B&O taxes.
The state does not own most of the downtown State office space. It leases it from the developers who built the projects to spec. I’m unsure as to the tax liabilities of the developers but the statement that the State owns these properties is not true.
This puts an undue burden on the rest of the City’s economic base to fund city services and facilities, and leaves the City with an insufficient tax base to meet even some of its basic needs, such as downtown parking garages and repair of Percival Landing. The small, locally-owned businesses downtown cannot afford the additional fees and taxes required to bridge this funding gap.
To remedy this inequity, a “Capital City District” should be created to encompass all of downtown Olympia and the Capitol Campus. The State and City should develop a revenue sharing plan to fund the needed improvements in the District.
I’m sure the Legie will line up in support right after monkeys fly out of Pam Roaches’ butt. The battle between the State and Olympia is over 100 years old and the city has yet to win anything significant. See Rogues, Buffoons, and Statesmen for a hilarious history of this battle.
Oly2012’s Capital City District is a nice sounding and even a reasonable, just and logical suggestion that will go nowhere quick. By making such a suggestion Oly2012, (by which I mean the Steering Committee and do so throughout this piece) reveals Oly2012 to be either incredibly naïve or accomplished propagandists.
This can be accomplished in a number of ways. For example, the State collects a 6.5% tax on every dollar of retail sales. The City could ask the State to dedicate one cent of its 6.5 cents per dollar in sales tax revenues collected from within this “Capital City District”, and the City, as a partner, could pledge some portion of its own tax revenue in the district to improvements in the district.
And the Legie can laugh it’s ass off. (See Pam above)
There are other mechanisms that could be employed, such as joint bonding, land swaps, LIFT programs or other creative financing ideas. The revenue generated through such a State-City partnership would accomplish some or all of the public amenity projects envisioned for a revitalized downtown.
Enhance the Isthmus for View Corridors and Community Events
The Isthmus – the land between Heritage Park and Budd Inlet, and Water Street and the Westside bridges -- is home to, among other properties, the vacant Capital Center building with its adjacent parking lot and annex.
The City should expand the view through the center of the isthmus by acquiring the Capital Center block, removing the buildings, and replacing them with a performance plaza for outdoor concerts, art fairs, or other entertainment with public parking underneath.
Is the proposal to build a plaza off the ground for surely that is the only way to get parking beneath with the water table and all. I suppose it would be possible to force underground parking at the site through sea walls but that is a very expensive proposition. Maybe what they are suggesting is a parking garage with an open space on top. (For the record that idea is copy righted and cannot be used without a large contribution to my college fund.)
Whatever Oly2012 envisions in the way of puplic performance plaza it will expensive duplication of an asset Olympia is not short on. Heritage park, the Port Plaza performance space and Sylvester Park’s Gazebo are three outdoor performance spaces that quickly come to mind.
The City should complete the linkage between Heritage Park and Percival Landing by also acquiring the vacant lot in front of the Olympia Yacht Club and building a park and visitor center, (More un-funded mandates) with public parking underneath. (Another sea wall?)
The City should also expedite its acquisition of the buildings immediately to the east of the fountain park, so the fountain is in the middle surrounded on all sides by the park.
The city has done this.
Jump Start Market Rate Housing
The City’s Comprehensive Plan has been calling for downtown market rate housing in locations near amenities since it was adopted in 1994. At that time, the City estimated that more than 2,500 housing units would be needed in downtown Olympia to accommodate its 20-year share of County growth projections. While the plan was updated in 2005, the housing needs remained virtually the same.
And yet, an entire generation has passed with very few private developers stepping forward to actually build a substantial amount of market rate housing downtown. Investors and developers currently have little incentive to develop the needed downtown housing units since they can safely realize a steady profit through the rental of office buildings to state agencies.
Um, didn’t Oly2012 imply earlier the State owned those building?
A variety of downtown housing for all ages and income levels will continue to remain elusive until some regulatory burdens are addressed, (corporate welfare) unnecessary fees reduced or eliminated, and someone can solidly demonstrate that developing downtown housing is as good of an investment as renting office buildings to state agencies.
Essentially, this is the ‘pay us or we won’t build.’ argument. Without those ‘unnecessary fees, (whatever that may mean), how will the city pay for the multi-millions in infrastructures spending Oly2012 proposes?
In addition the proposition is BS. SHAG has been built. Capital Terrace condos on Eastside Street have been built. The Columbia street project will break ground soon. Housing is being built, just not on prime real esatate.
Today we have two developers with the resources to take the risk of “going first”, with an apartment project on Columbia Street and a condo project on the isthmus -- projects that should spur other developers to invest in the downtown housing we need.
And just how will that happen? Saying ‘that should’ is not good enough.
With respect to the current application for an Urban Waterfront Housing rezone for nine parcels of property on the isthmus, only two of the nine parcels should be considered for additional heights by the City Council. Those two parcels are now occupied by former public service buildings and parking lots, just west of the Capital Center building. If the Council determines that the mixed-use development proposal (Larida Passage) for these two parcels is consistent with the City’s comprehensive plan, it should require a binding site plan and rigorous architectural review -- and the City should commit to the proposal to remove the Capital Center building and acquire the vacant parcels across the street, and construct the park/performance space to expand the view corridor.
Not only should the city give developers tax breaks and enact designer zoning for Triway, a proposal that has been overwhelmingly rejected before, Oly2012 is calling for the City to spend millions of dollars to improve the lots surrounding a building intended to house members of this nation’s economic elite.
This action will prevent “walling off the waterfront”, and actually enhance the views and use of the isthmus.
Uhuh. Seriously Oly2012, Olympians ain’t so stupid as to fall for that.
Build Parking Garages
The City has told us that the most heavily walked block in downtown is bordered by Capitol Way, Washington Street, Legion Way, and Fifth Avenue. One of the main reasons for this is that this block is the only block in all of downtown that provides a “continuous” street uninterrupted by any surface parking lot. (see map) The reality is that most of downtown is dedicated to surface parking for automobiles, and people don’t like walking past parking lots. Requiring each business to provide parking for its employees puts a tremendous burden (BS) on the small locally owned businesses that are the hallmark of downtown.
The City needs to begin establishing a system of downtown parking garages
Not one, but a system of parking garages. At how many millions a piece? The BPIA estimates a parking garage will run about two million.
where business owners can buy parking for employees and patrons can pay reasonable fees to visit downtown.
As opposed to the Westfield Mall where parking is free and the shopping covered. This will harm, not help downtown business.
The ground level of each garage could be developed for retail to provide a continuous street and a more appealing structure. The availability of one or more parking garages ultimately will make the current overabundance
I thought there was a shortage of parking downtown, the raison d etre for a parking garage.
of surface parking lots more attractive for higher and better use -- possibly for housing with structured parking for tenants.
Create a Downtown Entertainment Zone
Many nights the crowded streets, active arts venues, and busy restaurants in downtown Olympia would be the envy of any small city. However, as more housing is developed downtown it is important to designate an area where late night activity can be protected, including live music performance. Downtown residents want entertainment opportunities like nightclubs and theaters close by, as long as they are not disruptive. The goal should be to minimize conflict among competing uses and to provide lively entertainment to residents and visitors.
The City should designate an entertainment zone, possibly in the historic district. The City could contribute capital funding for non-profit theatre organizations to restore and repair their facilities and provide adequate sound proofing from adjacent performance spaces.
There is only one non-profit theater organization that has this problem and that is Harlequin Productions. On Saturday nights it was common to hear bands playing next door as 4th Ave Tavern. Beyond that, and Entertainment Zone is another pleasant piece of propagandist puffery calculated to distract from the pro-business, pro-developer bias of Oly2012
The businesses and organizations in the entertainment zone would need to work together to create an area where all patrons feel welcome and safe.
Conclusion
While this is a beginning in our effort to create a large community of informed citizens who believe in OLY 2012’s mission and values, it is by no means the “whole vision”. We hope these initial ideas spur a community conversation that is cooperative rather than adversarial. While our conclusions may appear ambitious, we are confident that everything is realistically achievable.
Bullshit!
The real conclusion
What Oly2012 has proposed is a series of expensive and unrealistic proposals calculated to appease opponents while hanging tough with the Triway Condo proposal. Oly2012’s is smoke and mirrors, an Astroturf group composed of a half-dozen well heeled folk recycling a bunch of expensive and in many cases failed propositions concealing (poorly) Oly2012’s true mission: Condos on the isthmus.
If the City is going to foot
Submitted by rainy gray on Sun, 06/01/2008 - 2:21pm.why pay at all?
Submitted by chad360 on Tue, 06/03/2008 - 10:55am.I know that this is how biz is done these days, but why couldn't those seeking to develop the site de-construct the old building(s) as a nice gift to the public versus the process where the CoO prepares the site, etc...
>I guess I'm just getting defensive thinking about all this construction in town and the mess it will bring during the tear-down and build-out<
thanks and formatting
Submitted by emmettoconnell on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 9:20am.I changed up the formatting a bit (added blockquotes to the quoted sections). Hope you don't mind.
And, this is exactly the kind of analysis I was hoping for.
Thanks Emmett
Submitted by Laurian on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 9:23am.Also thanks, but...
Submitted by Burr on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 10:04am.Laurien - I, too, congratulate you for at least making an attempt to actually critique on its own merits the ideas that this group has put forth. However, your conclusion (as well as many of your other arguments) of unsubstantiated claims that this group's "true mission" is to build "condos on the isthmus" significantly underminds much of the time and effort you put into this. That's too bad.
Your cynicism comes through in spades, though. My initial feeling is also that this group is proposing a lot of great public ammenities (fixing percival landing, parks, view corridors, parking garages) that will be very expensive. But they are also proposing a way of funding it all. I am no public finance guru, but I know enough not to dismiss the idea right off the bat when there is so much to potentially gain from it - their vision is pretty damn appealing to me.
No, they are not suggesting a realistic funding source
Submitted by Laurian on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 1:13pm.The only revenue source Oly2012 identifies for their public amenities, (and I'm not sure two or more ugly grey concret parking garages are an amenity), is asking the Legie to kick in. Other than Sam Hunt and Brendan Williams, no one legislature is going to give Oly2012 the time of day, let alone the multi-millions the Oly2012 vision calls for. Not only that, Oly2012 pooh pooh impact and developer fees as well as completely ignores the 10 year property tax expemption Triway is also asking for.
Simply chanting Oly2012 is proposing good things doesn't make them so nor make them realistic. I'd like to see a public aquarium and a minor league baseball stadium on Port property. I've talked to a lot of people from all walks of life about my ideas and most of them think that would be neat. I'll ask the Legie to pay for my ideas and they should because, well just because they should. See it's that easy to do the vision thing.
Don't become so enamored by some neato sounding ideas to loose sight of the facts. Oly2012 formed after the Triway proposal became public. Oly2012 came out of the blocks endorsing the Triway project. Oly2012 continues to advocate for changing the zoning so the Triway proposal can be built. This is not speculation by me or anyone else's. It's the history of this astroturf outfit and it's in their damned documents. Oly2012 walks like a lobbying group, quacks like a lobbying group, ergo...
From the OLY 2012 Website...
Submitted by Burr on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 1:26pm.Q. Is OLY 2012 associated in anyway with the Tri-Way project aimed at developing the downtown Isthmus or the Comprehensive Plan amendment proposal related to that project?
A. No. The genesis of our organization began months before that project was ever publically proposed. OLY 2012 does not have (and has never had) any ties with that organization or its project whatsoever.
************************
You just don't want to believe it, do you?
What I want to believe is irrelevant
Submitted by Laurian on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 1:50pm.What I know is.
Hadn't heard a peep from Oly2012 until after the Triway announcement. Oh, could it be possible Oly2012 isn't being completely truthful about the timing of their organizing? Somewhat like their questionable assert to being grassroots? Nah. Again, just because they say it's so don't make it so. I have never claimed Oly2012 and Triway have any ties other than sharing support amending the Comprehensive Plan to allow the condo project.
Burr, I appreciate your critical eye and words aimed at the anti-Oly2012. Like you, I don't care who is proposing hair brained notions. I care about the notions.
Now can you tell me how parking under a Plaza would work? How will the city pay for demolishing a multi-story building and fix Percival landing? How do you propose to get the Legie to pay for this pipe dream?
Think: Sky Plaza
Submitted by emmettoconnell on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 1:57pm.Sweet:
woah
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 2:02pm.Safety: Bah!
Submitted by emmettoconnell on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 2:07pm.Pikers
Submitted by Laurian on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 5:17pm.What the...
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 2:09pm.Ooh
Submitted by security_six on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 3:40pm.Ritzy la-de-da marina. Mmph. Probably no liveaboards, and a bunch of weekend warriors on their bayliners. :-p
Some even call me mad! And why? Because I dared to dream …of my own race of atomic monsters! Atomic supermen with octagonal-shaped bodies that suck blood out of...--Professor FarnsworthYou know, we often hate the things we love
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 4:24pm.Dangit!!
Submitted by security_six on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 4:30pm.Those are some of the most disgusting things I have ever heard from another human being! I'd nearly rather sit in the same room as Sarah Brady than ponder a cat rigged cruise a home...
Hmmm... then again, how big of a sail?
Some even call me mad! And why? Because I dared to dream …of my own race of atomic monsters! Atomic supermen with octagonal-shaped bodies that suck blood out of...--Professor FarnsworthAha! See...
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 4:36pm.Still 3" too short
Submitted by security_six on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 4:42pm.For me, and poor Ms. Brady is probably crying tears of grief over not being able to be in the same room with me...
Urgh. I'm going to spout some four letter words now. :-p
Some even call me mad! And why? Because I dared to dream …of my own race of atomic monsters! Atomic supermen with octagonal-shaped bodies that suck blood out of...--Professor FarnsworthOly 2012 was forming long
Submitted by wilson on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 4:42pm.Therefore?
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 4:51pm.They are not. I agree with
Submitted by wilson on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 5:03pm.I that's not why they rub me the wrong way
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 5:49pm.The difference between you and me...
Submitted by Burr on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 8:05pm.Laurien - Personally, I don't have any solid answers for the questions you have posed. But I am willing to believe that this group, which has clearly thought in detail through many of the issues facing downtown, have vetted their ideas thoroughly enough to propose them publicly. If they haven't, then I have little doubt they will fail as an organization. But do we know that yet?
The difference between you and me is that I am willing to give this group the benefit of the doubt. I would like to hear them out, while you simply dismiss them as a "shill" for developers because of happenstance - the timing of when they officially became part of the public conversation and the fact that they happen to favor a high density housing development (among many other things) in downtown.
As I pointed out, OLY 2012 addresses the timing issue (as well as their relationships with developers) explicitly on their website. And while there may be some room for the cynical among us to question the timing coincidence, only the most unreasonable in our community will leap to the conclusion that this group is being "untruthful".
Meta Hogan’s skepticism about this group was justified and qualified. Your conclusions, on the other hand, are Rovian and, quite frankly, concern me…particularly given your self-acknowledged status in local politics.
And finally, can someone PLEASE explain to me how a group of community citizens aiming to mobilize other community citizens to take public action on issues affecting them is not grassroots? All because of the absense of a physical forum? Weak argument.
Rovian!?! How's that?
Submitted by Laurian on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 9:17pm.You choose to take the steering committee at their word. Many others don't Fine. But now you're devolving into putting words in my mouth and calling me names. That dog don't hunt.
So far all you have written is essentially 'Oly2012 says so-and-so on their web site and I believe them' while ignoring critiques of what they have written. You certainly have the right to believe what you want. Just don't claim there is much reason behind what you've chosen to believe.
I won't be responding to your comments until you choose to address issues rather than make ad hominem attacks and regurgitate the Oly2012 web site. I think we are pretty clear where each other stands on Oly2012. Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.Easy...
Submitted by Burr on Tue, 06/03/2008 - 8:18am.Laurien - I criticized your factless conclusions about this group as Rovian, not you personally. There was nothing ad hominem about my remarks; everything I wrote was in reference to your approach to this debate. Also, as a political representative, I certainly hope that you are open to fair criticism concerning how you tackle political issues.
Your point about addressing the proposal itself is a good one. I think their proposal (or vision, or whatever you want to call it) is absolultely inspiring: Fixing percival landing, creating new views that don't currently exist, providing increased waterfront access, building new parks, providing much-needed parking, establishing an entertainment district to help preserve nighlife and culture, and perhaps most-importatly, increasing density in downtown. While none of these ideas are original, it is refreshing to see a group put them all together into one coherent vision and back that vision up with a concept to finance it all.
As far as the basic concepts go, I know virtually no one who wouldn't support these ideas. Your point questioning the ability and the willingness of the State and other government organizations to provide the capital necessary to accomplish OLY 2012's far-reaching vision is a fair one (save the cynicism). I, too, am somewhat skeptical. But I am not going to "laugh" them off yet. And I don't think anyone in our community who agrees with those ideas should either - even the most cynical among us.
Grassroots/Netroots
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 9:28pm.I definitely lean away from Laurian's view right now, I'd like to see some evidence of what he says. At this point, in order to believe his story, I'd have to make a lot of assumptions.
That said, I want to address your last paragraph, at least with my two cents anyway. I haven't seen any effort on the part of Oly 2012, thus far, to "mobilize citizens" to do anything. They created an email group, and made it clear that they might post some positions members wouldn't agree with, and then did so. My cynical side is saying they wanted to build a large email group in order to say they have a lot of community support for their ideas, while not really having that support. In this case they at least couldn't know whether they had the support of their members or not.
To mobilize implies some action is being generated. They haven't asked for any action of citizens, except for signing up on their list, so far. Having a forum would be one part of it, they might also educate their members about the issues, ask them for input, develop a platform with that input, and then develop an action plan for their members to carry out that platform. That would be some grassroots citizen mobilization. So far, they could be called a netroots group, being that all of their citizen engagement has taken place on the internet, but I wouldn't call them grassroots.
Grassroots don't "aim" to mobilize
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 06/03/2008 - 9:29am.they actually mobilize. And that mobilization always includes people outside of the usual power structures that dominate most public decision-making. I just don't see that happening here:
(1) I see no evidence that the group actually listens to or actively engages with the people they "mobilize." I hope a "grassroots" member will speak up and describe how they provided feedback to the organization. I would like to know how they found out about the organization before the Olympian announced its existence.
(2) They are not transparent enough for me to determine if they are indeed "young and old, long time residents and newcomers, liberals, conservatives, progressives and moderates. We are employers and employees, retirees, and parents." Why keep that membership a secret?
(3) And, nice as they all are, you'd think the steering committee of a grassroots effort to create a vision for downtown Olympia would include at least one representative from downtown who is not a business owner or a former lobbyist. There is no shortage of fair-minded people willing to serve. You'd think they would at least solicit feedback or establish relationships with the Municipal Nihilists. Not a peep.
It all seems very odd to me.
I am on their mailing list
Submitted by jlw on Tue, 06/03/2008 - 1:07pm.Now, I suspect, they count you amoung their supporters
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 06/03/2008 - 1:42pm.And the truth is...
Submitted by jlw on Tue, 06/03/2008 - 1:49pm.Hard to see...
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Tue, 06/03/2008 - 7:47pm.Not sure how that "answer"
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 1:57pm.I've decided
Submitted by security_six on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 3:42pm.I like the idea of condos. But there must be a certain percentage(10-25%) as low income.
Some even call me mad! And why? Because I dared to dream …of my own race of atomic monsters! Atomic supermen with octagonal-shaped bodies that suck blood out of...--Professor FarnsworthTriway already has the 10 year tax exemption
Submitted by OlyDowntowner on Mon, 06/02/2008 - 4:33pm.Where is the seawall and who is paying for it?
Submitted by Mike on Tue, 06/03/2008 - 5:45am.There is an awful lot of material to read and digest here.
I think the question to ask with regard to the development of the isthmus is whether the long term impacts and costs are being considered.
Maybe this has been answered, and if so, I apologize, but what is the planning in the isthmus development for rising sea levels? Will the developers be paying for the sea level protection or will the tax payer foot the bill in the end to protect this private investment?
Remember that significant flooding of downtown is already an issue when 17 foot tides and heavy rainfall coincide.
This is a good topic.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 06/03/2008 - 8:25am.I have a lot to say about
Submitted by w1r3d1 on Tue, 06/03/2008 - 7:30am.Nihilism in action...
Submitted by Burr on Tue, 06/03/2008 - 8:35am.As the coach of the Bad News
Submitted by w1r3d1 on Tue, 06/03/2008 - 8:56am.Socialite
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 06/03/2008 - 9:02am.I don't much like the rich
Submitted by OlyDowntowner on Tue, 06/03/2008 - 8:15pm.I agree that there is
Submitted by w1r3d1 on Tue, 06/03/2008 - 10:05am.