Creating Your Own Medicine Bag or Shaman Drum Workshop

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Creating Your Own Medicine Bag or Shaman Drum Workshop

Submitted by Hummingbird Shaman on Wed, 05/28/2008 - 9:39am.

Start: Jun 20 2008 - 6:00pm

End: Jun 20 2008 - 9:30pm

This workshop is a hands-on event where each participant will create a basic shaman medicine bag. A medicine bag is an ancient energy tool, once used only by the spiritual leaders and healers of a community. This is an introductory event open to everyone, for beginning or master levels. Our medicine bag workshop brings this ancient tool into our day-to-day life. We can use the medicine bag to draw to us the soul qualities we seek, to guide us, strengthen us, and invite those who nurture us into our lives. Attendance at this workshop is $10, and you can join us as an observer for the synergy of the workshop, stories, and social aspect. We encourage making a medicine bag as well, and we will have kits available for $15. This includes many ingredients for your medicine bag, many unique and fun items! Additional items such as gems and rare items will be available for purchase. You can also bring small personal items to add to your medicine bag, or you can change or add to your medicine bag later. A limited number of drum kits will be available and pre-registration is required for drum making. The cost for a drum kit and the drum making class is $115 for the 14" drum and $125 for the 16" drum. Drum beaters are available for $10-$30 depending on size and materials. For more information about this event and the Healing Drum Retreat June 20-22nd 2008 visit www.shamanstore.hummingbirdshaman.com The location of this event is Brighton Creek, 4516 SR 702, Roy, WA 98580. Pre-registration is advised for a medicine bag kit, but last minute drop-in's are welcome, we will have a limited number of extra kits. Drum making requires pre-registration by Wednesday June 18th, 2008. Registration can be completed through: www.BrightonCreek.com, or; www.shamanstore.hummingbirdshaman.com; or by phone through our organizers Kaye Tahwakeena (Drum Making Teacher) 360-785-4879 or Estee Taschereau (Event Organizer) 206-878-3513 Attendance fee is waived for those registered for attendance at the Healing Drum Retreat on Saturday and Sunday!

Attachment	Size
Healing Drum June 2008.pdf	112.2 KB

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cultural appropriation?

Submitted by olympiagal on Wed, 05/28/2008 - 10:05am.

i have always wanted to ask a non-Native shaman this question. How is it NOT cultural appropriation to offer a paid workshop that teaches people American Indian traditional practices by a white person. I do have more to say on this, but lets keep it simple. just asking..... thanks, Amy

Thanks for comment, was that a question?

Submitted by Hummingbird Shaman on Wed, 05/28/2008 - 4:00pm.

Thank for your comment. The co-organizer is native american, and has practiced native american teachings for many years. I am of different decent and teachings, but have 30+ years. Shamanism is international, with shamanic communities around the world in many cultures. As a spiritual teacher and leader I offer what I am called to offer. I invite you to talk with me or better yet participate in an event or offering I am associate with to assess rather than judge me based upon a photo. Spiritual teaching have also changed greatly over the past few years with teachings that had once been for the elite or chosen few now being offered to the many. Is it not the information and experience more important than the vessel in which it is presented?

h-h!

Submitted by a.future.with.n... on Wed, 05/28/2008 - 4:46pm.

Ntv b ssctn. Rl slck.

cultural appropriation....

Submitted by olympiagal on Wed, 05/28/2008 - 5:32pm.

seems to me that the only reason spiritual teachings have changed, as you stated, is because of the theft of that teaching by white people. Indians fought and died for their beliefs and practices. to blithely offer their teachings for sale i think is just wrong. ps: i do not offer my opinion based on a picture, i base it on my belief in historical and current oppression of Native Americans, one the the ways communities are oppressed is via cultural appropriation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_appropriation

Knowledge is knowledge. Once

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 7:47am.

Knowledge is knowledge. Once learned it should be passed on to the next generations regardless of culture. If it's truly wrong that a Non-Native American has this knowledge and is willing to teach it, then the fault lies on whichever Native American taught them (or taught the person who taught them) in the first place.

Spiritual Teachings should be Universal. If a Non-Native feels in their heart that Native Spiritualism speaks to them, and wants to know more so they can be true in their beliefs, is that wrong? If so, is it then right to bar Native Americans from Traditionally European Churches?

You can blow out a candle / But you can't blow out a fire / Once the flames begin to catch / The wind will blow it higher

white people?

Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 9:26am.

Do you mean Caucasians?

I didn't get the opinion that anyone was "blithely" doing anything here-

-"olympiagal", why don't you open a thread on your blog to discuss your opinion instead of writing all over this post? You seem like you want to discuss, so why not? (I disagree with you, but I'm not gonna comment further on this thread)

...and PS: you can use hyper-links to refer & link to sites like the wiki page you want to share (the little chain icons in the above toolbar).

Being the frist "white"

Submitted by keme on Sun, 06/29/2008 - 2:16pm.

Being the frist "white" child of my family, I understand about what meny tribes lost. I was reminded everytime I saw my grandfather, he would speak in a tounge I was not allowed to learn, and look at me with contempt. He would tell my mother she had dissapionted him by haveing a "white" child and would not let me join in our family ceramonies. He is dead now and my uncles all married "white" women and have "mixed blooded" children all like me. Too bad that due to my grandparents stuborness in keeping what was their culture by blood denyed us ours for the same reason. What I have learned I learn from others who look past the skin and see a kindered soul. I have a son now with a man with a simmiler background we will try to teach our child what we know and thank the ones who our willing to teach us as well.

I think is it wise

Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 9:57am.

to distinguish between large-scale, institutional appropriation such as the Land-O-Lakes lady, the Cleveland Indians, scouting, etc, and appropriation by a sincere and knowledgeable neo-pagan. Appropriation is a problem because it can strip ritual and other cultural symbols of meaning. I don’t know if that is happening in this case or not. I think it’s fine to bring up the issue. But if you are going to condemn, do so with more than a catch phrase.

I agree. Any kind of

Submitted by Meta Hogan on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 10:06am.

I agree. Any kind of cross-cultural exchange involves some degree of both assimilation and accommodation. BUT... there is a huge difference between essentially immersing yourself in a culture because you are called to practice its religion, and grabbing token items representing that culture to be used out-of-context. Of course, there are infinite shades in between, and when someone is upbraided by "inappropriate appropriation", it is an opportunity for us to discuss our p.o.v.s about it. In this case, the goal would be deeper understanding rather than complete agreement.

hi there-

Submitted by olympiagal on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 10:12am.

hi there- ok, so i do not know olyblog "protocol" as I rarely post here. i did not think i was "writing" all over someones post, nor do i think i use "catch phrases." nice. thank you. My feeling is that it is important to challenge people to think before selling off someone else's culture. I am sure there would be an uproar on this site if some "caucasian" person was selling classes to learn how to cook "african-american or latino-style." but never mind. Amy Levinson ps agreed, Meta!!!

I made Quesadillas last

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 10:17am.

I made Quesadillas last night. I'm White. I learned how to make them from my Mom. She's even whiter than I am. Her Mom was from San Antonio - I wouldn't be surprised if she made them too.

I can see a point being concerned about people making money off of religious or spiritual aspects of a different culture - but if you're going to be including cooking and other socio and/or life aspects then it sounds like what you're calling for is Isolation and Separatism. No Thank You.

You can blow out a candle / But you can't blow out a fire / Once the flames begin to catch / The wind will blow it higher

Yeah ok. You DO NOT have MY

Submitted by olympiagal on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 10:24am.

Yeah ok. You DO NOT have MY permission to eat my gefilte fish. And, i do not see your ad hawking the teaching of authentic enchilada makings with an American twist anyways..smile. I am not calling for any such things such as Isolation, etc, I am simply saying its not right to sell of others cultural beliefs. What is your definition of culture and spirituality...For myself I would include socio and life aspects along with religion and spirituality.

I've eaten Challah plenty of

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 11:14am.

I've eaten Challah plenty of times. Once my Sunday School class participated in a Passover Dinner. I had to practice kosher methods when I worked at Bagel Brothers (separating knives for meat and dairy, etc.) - all this and (not counting cousins) I have to go back to the 18th Century to find Jewish ancesters.

I've made Mexican food with American Cheese - Salmon Tacos, etc.

Lots of Native Americans have converted to Christianity (or were flat out born into it.) Shall we say that they have no right to conduct any workshops? Moderate organizations or small groups? How about the millions of Africans and their descendants all over the World who are Christians - should they be asked to refrain from being the proprieter of Christian Book Stores?

How about people of mixed-race? I assume it's alright for them to get the best of both worlds. How about their kids? Do they lose the right to teach something they've learned if their ethnic percentages don't stay at a certain level?

smile

Submitted by olympiagal on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 11:29am.

I have been told that my conversation and thoughts on this are not appropriate or articulate enough here so I guess I will not answer but as you may guess i have strong opinions. But, you may have a small slice of my gefilte fish.

baiting

Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 11:30am.

recipes welcome

Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 10:29am.

no uproar here, actually mild interest...

>treats<

...yum.

And yeah, you are writing all over 'shaman's invite/announce...if you wanna:

"My feeling is that it is important to challenge people to think before selling off someone else's culture"

...then start a discuss thread.

It is polite to learn the ropes, and while you state that you are rarely posting here, you also are sure what would "fly" or not here on the 'blog...which is it? Are you so familiar you know what we are all gonna say or so rarely here that you are clueless on protocol?

...anyways, you assumptions about OlyBlog are wrong and a bit demeaning, so "thanks. nice" right back to you =)

PS: if you have something to say, try articulating you thoughts here

olyblog protocol

Submitted by olympiagal on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 10:41am.

so, its Olyblog protocol that I am not allowed to challenge what I see as offensive? I have to go somewhere else?

May I ask if you're Native

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 11:19am.

May I ask if you're Native American? Not long ago a woman called while I was board-opping a radio presentation - she was upset that a promo recorded by Floyd Red Crow Westerman, who had passed away a few months prior, had been played. She insisted it was offensive to his culture - but subsequent research showed that the Lakota Tribe does not fear death in the way that the Navajo do...not to mention the fact that Westerman was a performer who recorded his voice and image knowing full well they'd be preserved for posterity.

His promo's still available in the rotation.

You can blow out a candle / But you can't blow out a fire / Once the flames begin to catch / The wind will blow it higher

a suggestion

Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 11:27am.

Amy, you have been on this site for 2+ yrs, you know what the protocol as well as I or another, so don't make me or anybody else into OlyBlog playground watchdogs (...the answer is "no", you don't have to go someplace else unless a docent directs you).

What I AM suggesting is that you focus on the thought-provoking POV you have, and embellish that concept by posting a thread on your own blog here on OlyBlog, and then engaging in the discussion there, and not on 'shamans invite/announce (which should be an event notice and maybe not a blog entry...I dunno on that point, although I guess a docent could help out here =).

Looking at this thread, I'm concerned that you are just looking to "white bash", and also not sincere in engaging "on topic" about spiritualism in the context of the making medicine bags...

...it seems that you are mad that someone in the community is offering to expand spiritual awareness and safety through a workshop designed to create and honor indigenous traditions, and that you are trying to make a connection between this celebratory, empowering workshop and the wide-spread abhorrent socio-historical events that permeate our culture and continue to taint our interpersonal relationships to one another...

...I'm sorry Amy, but I don't understand what you are trying to accomplish here on OlyBlog, and I do find your tone demeaning and biased in the way that is shockingly similar to racism.

Assumptions based on "race" is racism Amy, and you are talking the talk of a racist using words like "whites" in the way you do to delineate humans one from another (that is one reason why I'm prickly here).

Given the ultra-rudeness of

Submitted by olympiagal on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 11:32am.

Given the ultra-rudeness of your private message to me, it would seem that anything I say will just make you mad. I think i have a valid point of view and you do not. I suppose we will have to leave at that. Amy

ultra-rude would have no vowels...

Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 11:44am.

...and while we are on it, I "demand an apology" for your "white bashing" (or whatever you call your speach).

Sending PMs out and then complaining that you didn't like the result is really useless as far as public discussion is concerned-

-please feel free to print the whole PM exchange(one email from Amy and one response from me), and quit alluding to what took place after you instigated the PM (I'm sure no one cares besides you & me =).

-and while we are on it, why have you not raised these thoughts on your blog instead on this thread?

You clearly do have a strong POV, but you don't want to discuss it?

This post is not the place, since the author was announcing/inviting for an event, etc...

>I'm out for lunch with the sig.other (E!)<

the W word.

Submitted by olympiagal on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 11:49am.

you will never get an apology from me! Anyhow, feel free to post the PM. My POV is this: I do not think a White person should be offering for sale a traditional Native American belief system and its accoutrements. Period. If you have a problem with that POV, go have lunch on the Rez and see how they feel...smile!

one more thing, exactly how

Submitted by olympiagal on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 12:58pm.

one more thing, exactly how does a Caucasian person "create indigenous traditions?" I am not trying to accomplish anything here on olyblog other than point out something that really, truly bothers me.

same way as any other person?

Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 1:05pm.

You are bothered by someone's race?

I guess it is a matter of perspective-

-how long do you have to be in a place to be considered "indigenous" (I use that term instead of "native")? ...and if so, what merit is at the end of this line of reasoning?

...this all reminds me of Neil Gaiman's "American Gods" novel

indigeousity. smile.

Submitted by olympiagal on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 1:50pm.

good question. No I am not bothered by someones race, just bothered by people taking bits and pieces of other peoples sacred cultural and spiritual beliefs, changing them and selling them... I wish I knew how to put breaks in paras, I guess I could read the formatting tips. But, since you brought up what i consider an interesting and important question: "what is indigenous," I will say that before I married an American Indian born, raised and living on a rez for 59 years, I would have said: we are all indigenous to somewhere and as a Jew, my family was forcibly removed to the greater diaspora..along with many other cultures throughout history, so deal with it those who were here first. Now, I think its important to recognize who exactly was oppressed by whom in order to become "indigenous" to somewhere. To me, the merit of this line of reasoning is to learn (for me) how not to continue that oppression...

Para breaks

Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 2:49pm.

Click on the "enable rich text" link below the comment box and you will be able to add breaks the old new-fashioned way...with the Enter key.

testing testing. Ok, I am a

Submitted by olympiagal on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 2:51pm.

testing

testing. Ok, I am a technical moron obviously..that was more than easy. Thank you.

So white people

Submitted by security_six on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 6:32pm.

Aren't allowed traditions? For what it is worth several generations back in my lineage and I find full blood Cherokee. Cherokee who refused to sign the Daws Rolls registering themselves as native.

While I find the sale and marketing of various cultures tacky at best, I don't sit up and have white guilt over it. Race is an issue that still lives because various political factions find it of value.

Mebbe if there was less politcal power in race and sex, we could all just be people?

Some even call me mad! And why? Because I dared to dream …of my own race of atomic monsters! Atomic supermen with octagonal-shaped bodies that suck blood out of...--Professor Farnsworth

Hold on there...

Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 12:04pm.

First, I said it was a good thing to bring up. However, I do have a problem with quick condemnations based on what I thought was a vague interpretation of cultural appropriation. I think it’s right for me to voice that objection. I welcome the conversation but I have no bloody idea why you would say “I am sure there would be an uproar on this site if some "caucasian" person was selling classes to learn how to cook "african-american or latino-style." I think it’s an unfair projection.

I used the term “catch phrase” because not all cultural appropriation is necessarily a bad thing, yet the term was being used here as if it is nothing other than pejorative. Sorry if I offended you. I could have put it a different way or just asked you a question.

I understand what you are saying about profiting from selling someone else’s culture. Perhaps that’s all it takes to deserve condemnation. Can’t argue with that judgment. But that’s a different form of appropriation altogether…an appropriation of implied property rights. Distasteful as it may be, again, that form of appropriation does not have one flavor. Is it destructive no matter what form it takes? Perhaps it is. But I think we can allow a touch of nuance to grace the conversation.

Peace.

I appreciate your thoughts.

Submitted by olympiagal on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 12:51pm.

I appreciate your thoughts. However, I am not sure what part of any appropriation is a Good thing. I suppose I used a metaphor that did not work for you or others when comparing cooking (which I do believe is a part of "culture,") to this event.

When is it a good thing?

Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 1:15pm.

Kayaking?

Smoking tobacco?

Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 1:18pm.

smoking tobacco is more

Submitted by olympiagal on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 1:53pm.

smoking tobacco is more important a tradition to me personally, in about five minutes, then kayaking where I might fall out and drown.

...both rooted in Native American identity?

Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 2:27pm.

Guglielmo's point is worth considering, when is this kind of sharing OK?

For me it's all tool-use.

I would say that there is

Submitted by olympiagal on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 2:46pm.

I would say that there is not a correct answer, but taking sacred teachings and traditions, reinventing them, and selling them are not in the OK category. There is not alot of people pounding on the doors of the temple who wannabee Jews...but when they do, you can bet they just cannot start doing ceremonies...they need to come to an agreement/ok with the Rabbi or spiritual leader of the temple that is in their area, they have to study with Jews, learn the language, culture, traditions, spirituality from the Jews, and then convert with a Rabbi.

sounds alot like how Aikido is taught...

Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 3:18pm.

...(or most martial arts), and the kind of cultural stress that Bruce Lee had to go through when he started his own dojo in San Francisco. I guess most organizations have similar prohibitions, even in the open-source community there is the General Public License(GPL).

I think that it is kinda "fundamentalist wacko" to expect everyone to agree on what is sacred, but I definitely empathize with tribal identity...I sure wouldn't want someone showing up at my weekly D&D game talking 4th Edition rules when my posse is really "into" the "old school" rules-

For me, the only belief system I can think of that would earn my feisty loyalty would be a belief system based on concepts & elements that center on ecology and basic rights-

-something that "takes a stand" to protect creatures and promote biodiversity in nature and a role of stewardship for humans (I'm still shopping).

Outside of a conceptual framework such as that, I find most dialog on belief to be morally superficial.

...and I wouldn't even begin to know where to start when "ownership" or exclusivity is expressed in association with beliefs, although I can understand how such strong perceptions impact identity & cultural trust.

this is exactly what I mean,

Submitted by olympiagal on Fri, 05/30/2008 - 8:30am.

this is exactly what I mean, Chad. If D and D is important to YOU...then imagine something as important or more being plagiarized, adulterated and sold off to non D and D players. D and D is now tic tac toe becuase I said so ( as a non d and D player). Anyways, I am sure you know that Native American spirituality IS nature/ecology based, it is a basic right. Lastly, you state, "for me..the only belief system that would earn my feisty loyalty..." thats for YOU, and its sounds like you would entertain the argument that people do indeed retain loyalty to beliefs systems...now if we can take that further and look at the intermixing of race...and accept that for Native Americans, there does exists this loyalty....they do not want their D and D game turned inot a generic tic tac toe game and resold as such..etc.

"spot-on" but not "eye-to-eye"

Submitted by chad360 on Fri, 05/30/2008 - 10:15am.

Oh I'm hearing you, especially about the D&D...

...this is exactly what happened after Hasbro bought the local company, Wizards of the Coast (that owned the trade rights to the original D&D game created at Tactical Studies Rules); Hasbro started telling players of D&D what D&D was and how to play...

...so that is obviously a big disconnect between Hasbro and the game community, primarily instigated in the name of corporate profit-taking.

But where we are disconnecting is identity and ownership.

News Flash!: I'm a "native American" and I'm indigenous to North America even though I'm descendant from Welsh Celts and Irish Pagans with a whole lot of mixed up monotheists in between. I grew up in Puyallup and have a strong connection, identity, and loyalty in association with the Great Pacific Northwest...

...but I would never subscribe to an idea of ownership in belief (pride, sure, but not ownership...that is like arguing that my D&D world is better than your D&D world).

...and as for ecological practices of "Native Americans", I'm centered in the tradition of science, so I follow what archaeologists and anthropologists are investigating (which is very interesting), but does not paint a picture of an idyllic, informed, or equitable use of land between and amongst indigenous peoples, and I think it got even worse when folks from all over the globe started showing up here on the continent (I'm an "IBM and the Holocaust" and "Guns, Germs, and Steel" kinda guy: I like the science and history, the facts as can best be discovered)...for me, our shared history in America is very similar to the experiences of other cultures across the globe (the real shame is folks making the same mistakes over and over due to ignorance, fear, greed, or just "bad timing"/"fate").

I think that humans share more similarities than differences and the differences that divide are not worth preserving.

So, along those lines, I'm "very OK" with the sharing of techniques like the medicine bag (or yoga or kayaking, etc...), especially the sincere manner in which the teachings are offered-

Why are you so upset?

It is like, "Hey, I have been paid to run D&D games, but I'll teach anyone to play for free" =)

-now if I could just get good at painting those tiny mini-figures we use for the game! (they are SMALL!

>1 inch=5 scale feet<

...with the "hero"-sized mini-fig being all of 30mm~)

I liked guns, germs and

Submitted by olympiagal on Fri, 05/30/2008 - 10:42am.

I liked guns, germs and steel. I was referring to the spirituality of Native Americans being deeply rooted in nature. That is all. Actual practices and lifestyles depends on the economy, among many other factors as you know.

I guess the D and D wasnt quite the best analogy once again...but if I could put all sorts of offensive and dumb outreageous tactics in my new D and D for Dummies ( i have no idea what these would be..cuz i do not play..but trying thinking of really bad..) and sell it to non D and D players saying that YOU approved of the changes, even if you did not, how would you like it. Its really not a good analogy cuz theres deep issues of race and class, identity, legal classifications, rights inherent that were fought andf died for, brought to trial for...etc...which I do not believe is a huge problem in the gaming world...LOL.

Amy

E. Gary Gygax would argue that point...

Submitted by chad360 on Fri, 05/30/2008 - 11:00am.

...or just roll some dice =)

The only thing I'd have a problem with is someone mis-using my name or mis-representing me, but I could care less who sells what to who (...as long as I'm not forced to buy).

Hmmm, food4thought, "ownership of a belief system or cultural identity? How does that work?

Dianectics anyone?

I'm almost with "L" on this one~

more baaad analogy.

Submitted by olympiagal on Fri, 05/30/2008 - 11:17am.

nuff said, you said it all, chad: "The only thing I'd have a problem with is someone mis-using my name or mis-representing me"

Your D and D group told me specifically, or maybe they told me via one person (who really isnt in your group, but thats Ok by me) that the new D and D for Dummies that I will be selling under YOUR Name will now be about creating new and different rules loosely based on the old game but not really.

I will still call it the D and D that you know and love and played seriously for many years but will add whatever I see fit to it and I will market it as the classic D and D. Eventually, your D and D game will cease to exist, the game you know and loved will be traded, bought and sold, changed and watered down to tic tac toe level.

I can say whatever I want and change the rules of the game however I want and ad in my little ponies and tele-tubbies too, cuz I hear through the grapevine, or somewhere you really really love teletubbies. Oh who cares, as long as it sells. is that ok? never mind, i dont need your permission anyways...smile!

the game you know and loved will be traded...

Submitted by chad360 on Fri, 05/30/2008 - 6:47pm.

...well this already happened, and makes no difference in my house: we play our game and don't buy the Hasbro product & everything is just fine.

I have to comment on religion (in general): religion should be open-source as well, I have no connection with the idea of ownership when it comes to beliefs.

I don't really connect with your mindset and consider the "legal" stuff you mentioned to be a classic example of the flawed federal system...

I think that's really the issue here

Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 05/30/2008 - 11:28am.

Not so much the actual appropriation, but the trivialization and worse that can happen as a result. Combine that with the still very recent history of conflict and oppression caused by the European invasion and colonial expansion and it’s easy to see how these things can rankle. It must be maddening for some to see a white person practicing something (regardless of it’s accuracy) that a few generations ago might have been banned by American authorities or made inaccessible by other means, like sending the children away to the Indian Schools.

righto..

Submitted by olympiagal on Fri, 05/30/2008 - 12:00pm.

exactly. Thank you.

your legal classification?

Submitted by olympiagal on Fri, 05/30/2008 - 3:23pm.

Chad---if you say you are a Native American, are you saying that you are legally a member of a sovereign nation that resides here in the US? Do you have a Tribal ID enrollment card? Do you have a cert to sell Native American art?

People fought long and hard for their mi nimal rights as Native Americans, its a racial/legal classification which has certain rights given in exchange for the outright theft of land. I know you know this.

I certainly would not go to your house ( by the way i am an eastsider too), claim that really its MY house, walk in and take things claiming they are mine to sell. I think you would call the cops if I did. Its your house, in your name and you have legal paperwork to prove it.

Amy

Floyd

Submitted by olympiagal on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 11:23am.

hi merwyn. i am Jewish, my husband is an enrolled Skokomish Tribal elder. But, i think its important to stand in solidarity with historically oppressed communities...ergo my posts, which I have been privately rudely railed at for. and I do love Floyd.

baiting

Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 11:32am.

what is the use of posting like this?

Amy PM'd me and prob. didn't like the repsonse she got, so now this...

FYI-the only reason I PMed

Submitted by olympiagal on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 11:36am.

FYI-the only reason I PMed you was to keep it off this thread, as you yourself requested. I am not baiting you, I am not continuing a useless conversation...

There was no conversation Amy...

Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 11:48am.

...maybe that is the point, huh?

I'm glad you are dropping whatever point you were trying to make & I'll be happy to see you at the workshop =)

Gahh. Ok, will you be the

Submitted by olympiagal on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 11:50am.

Gahh. Ok, will you be the white dude with your hair in braids?

STOP!

Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 12:00pm.

STOP!

kidding

Submitted by olympiagal on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 12:51pm.

I was just kidding. sheesh.

btw--i do believe that

Submitted by olympiagal on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 2:52pm.

btw--i do believe that Michael Moore has it right, bad publicity is almost as good as good publicity. i am sure Hummingbird will have lots of people at her workshop...

Shmn, Schwmm

Submitted by Laurian on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 6:45pm.

ll bnch f "sprtl" BS. Lds nd Lsss thr s n grtr rlt, mgkl bynd, Chrstnt blh blh beynd th wndr f th phscl wrld. Wht ppl 'pprprtng' n sprtlt, b t Smtc, ndgns mrcn, Pgn, whtvr s stpd. If n hs t blv n thngs thy cnnt dmnstrt bjctvl I pltly sk thm t kp t t thmslvs.

T blv sck f stff s smhw mprtnt t n's wll bng s sd. T py fr ths BS s rll, rll sd.

N, wll nt plgz fr thsm. Sprtlty s fr th wk.

Let us assume you are right.

Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 8:42pm.

And sprituality is for the weak. How about you leave us alone. Or do you have something to lose from us weak folks? I can't imagine why. Perhaps you too should keep it to yourself. I know I do.

Laurian

Submitted by The Original Yoda on Thu, 05/29/2008 - 10:12pm.

While I don't consider myself to be religious, I can't help but feel a kick to the gut from your comments.

I can read any spiritual text and find meaning but it seems like you would say that I'm sad and I should keep any talk of philosophy or spiritual matters to myself.

I wish I had the sure-gripped handle on "the nature of reality" that you do but alas, at my age, I have not found any such turtle to stand on.

open mind

Submitted by chad360 on Fri, 05/30/2008 - 10:24am.

yeah, I'm trying to keep an open mind and not get too dogmatic in my pursuit of enlightenment-

-my biggest problem is scope: I empathize with the plight of folks I hear about in the news and also run into in my community, but I'm often "tapped out" and there is only so much social capital-

I try to teach by example but I really don't have anything impressive to show-off, so my lifestyle is not that influential and we are just getting by, so our biggest goal is trying not to make too much garbage & pollution while we are here (go sheet mulch!)

Sorry if I offended people

Submitted by Laurian on Fri, 05/30/2008 - 5:06pm.

such that it required my comments get disemvowelled. I'm a little upset about getting disemvolled because I feel I went after an idea, not an individual, but I'm willing to accept the judgment of a docent. It is true my post attempted to kick. I do not apologize for my distaste for 'spirituality'.

Yoda, I have nothing but respect for you. Should a conversation betwixt us turn to metaphysics all I'd ask is that you demonstrate how such an excursion would inform our talk about the nature of reality. I am more than willing to grant that such abstractions can be valuable in pursuit of the truth but only if understood as a tool, not an end.

Your turtle observation is great but may I suggest it isn't turtles all the way down. Saying so is just acknowledgment of the limits to Homo Sapien Sapien's power of observation. I've found a turtle to stand on and it's name is scientific method. Admittedly at times a shaky purchase but one with self-correction inherent in it's constitution.

Anyway, I apologize for my unintentional offense but not for what I know to be a better way to move through this world.

No problem...

Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 05/30/2008 - 6:22pm.

We people do this. Sorry about my overly defensive reaction.

I'd like to add my perspective, which is one that does not treat spirituality and positivism at mutually exclusive modes of thought. I am almost certain that I am as critical of materialistic spirituality (e.g. sacred peacock feathers curing diseases) as you are. But spirituality, like poetry, has more important qualities that transcend the physical realm. Not that they cannot be explained by neuroscience, but in that it is not necessary to seek material evidence for their value. The value is in the experience...the potential relationship (real or imagined) with the divine. Seeking that experience does not make me any less of a scientist.

I have my own interpretation of Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s. Caesar represents the material world and its laws. God represents the experience that transcends Caesar's world. Gravity and electrons and genetics and all other material relationships are ruled by Caesar, everything else by not Caesar (call it whatever you like). The only intersection between those worlds is me, you, or anyone else contemplating the two.

Is Sisyphus ruled entirely by his rock and the gravity that opposes his toil? Only if you imagine his only thoughts are about his punishment. Now, I imagine Camus's Sisyphus would probably be pretty firmly in your camp, a camp that scorns the assistance of any God, that rejects the role of Gods in matters of human destiny (or anything else for that matter). His rock is the product of his decisions, not a destiny scripted by puppet masters. I don't disagree with that point of view. As Sysyphus walks down his hill, he is for a moment, free of his rock. And in the moment he is free to think what ever he wishes. Camus, preoccupied with materialistic religiosity, describes a man who rejects Gods and the hope of some heavanly reward in favor of the realization that human fate is an entirely human matter. Again, I cannot disagree. I am, however, unconvinced that he would not be just as well served by contemplating the Buddha or praying the Rosary. The rock will still be waiting for him no matter what he does.

Its all good Laurian...

Submitted by The Original Yoda on Sat, 05/31/2008 - 12:17am.

Walking a fine line...

Submitted by Phil Owen on Fri, 05/30/2008 - 11:44am.

Do kayakers practice the bad kind of cultural appropriation? Or do Japanese teenagers unfairly appropriate American culture by eating at McDonalds?

There is a fine line between the authentic expression or practice of culture (even if it isn't one's blood heritage) and the stealing and distorting of that culture. It has to do with honoring the culture one participates in.

Consider books like "The Zen of Selling" or "The Zen of Basketball". Or the hundreds of movies where the heroic white guy discovers he's actually a Native American, prophesized to return and save the tribe. Consider the common phrase "Shopping for a church", or "Shopping for religion", or the massive, highly profitable industries in "spiritual" books and items.

As a Christian, I think I'd be sorely, seriously offended if someone tried to do with the Eucharist what the book industry has done with Zen philosophy.

There is a difference between a white person kayaking and a white person dressing up "Native" and playing "shaman". I can paddle a boat without laying false claim to another culture, just as a Japanese kid can eat a burger without changing identity. But for a white guy to call himself "Medicine Man" is to steal what is not his and to dishonor the culture he pretends to participate in. And (while I'm at it) to mix-and-match samples of other religions without regard for their origins is to degrade religion itself.

Religion is not a commodity. It is not a buffet or sampler tray. It is an iron-solid commitment and is not to be taken lightly.

This should not be construed to mean that white people should never practice Buddhism, or Native practices, or Eastern Orthodox Christianity. But I seriously question the pervasive interest in white society for "non-white" religions. It strikes me as a fetish for the exotic rather than true calling. And if a white person is called to Native spirituality, they would likely participate by humbly approaching the tribal elders and submitting to their guidance, not by advertising medicine bag workshops.

The Canaanite's Call

Who is the Native American

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Fri, 05/30/2008 - 11:49am.

Who is the Native American Co-Organizer of the event, and why is their existence ignored by everyone who's chimed in their disapproval?

Just FYI--No Native American

Submitted by olympiagal on Fri, 05/30/2008 - 12:11pm.

Just FYI--No Native American that I personally know, as I can only speak for people i know well, would approve of this, regardless of whether an Indian is involved or not.

for futher reading on this very touchy subject, try Vine DeLoria or Russell Means.

Good distinctions Phil

Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 05/30/2008 - 12:00pm.

Not all appropriation is bad...say, kayaking. But appropriation that disregards the importance or authenticy of particular symbols and practices is another thing entirely. A new age appropriation of the eucharist..."eat this bread to improve your vibrations or your sales" would be dissapointing. It's bad enough just knowing there is such a thing as a U2charist even though it is very well meaning.

Yeah, well meaning...

Submitted by Phil Owen on Fri, 05/30/2008 - 12:11pm.

...but really bad taste. One of the most obnoxious things in the Episcopal Church (my church) is the attempt by middle-aged folks to make the church services "hip" for younger people. I'm a younger person, and I really just like the traditional liturgy. Most other young people in my church do too.

The Canaanite's Call

So, is this okay?

Submitted by Meta Hogan on Sat, 05/31/2008 - 7:51am.

Some keep the Sabbath going to Church --
I keep it, staying at Home --
With a Bobolink for a Chorister --
And an Orchard, for a Dome --

Some keep the Sabbath in Surplice --
I just wear my Wings --
And instead of tolling the Bell, for Church,
Our little Sexton -- sings.

God preaches, a noted Clergyman --
And the sermon is never long,
So instead of getting to Heaven, at least --
I'm going, all along.

--Emily Dickinson

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