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an underutilized option
Submitted by enpen on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 12:27pm.We've made impeachment sacrosanct to the point that a lot of people seem to think the process requires the President to already have been convicted of a crime. The point is accountability and the Executive Branch needs to be held more accountable.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
The pragmatist in me would rather win the White House
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 12:32pm.it competes with other priorities
Submitted by enpen on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 12:46pm.The cynic in me says it competes with the status quo. Maybe every administration should face impeachment hearings in year 3 of each term.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
Low Profile Impeachment Proceedings
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 1:01pm.Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.
How Much Longer
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 1:03pm.are we going to beat this dead horse topic around here?
It hasn't happened. It won't happen. There's no interest in pursing it governmentally or otherwise.
It's getting old...
"A point of view is only a view from a point..." ~ Unknown
You are Wrong
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 1:06pm.There is interest. I suggest that you inform yourself. Your uninformed critique is getting old.
Here are just a few citations to exhibit the solid bedrock of support that impeachment does have:
Rep. Wexler wants hearings.
members of US Congress want impeachment hearings
impeachment in Washington State Senate
impeachment in Washington State House of Representatives
It's Not "Uninformed Critique"
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 1:45pm.it's reality to those of not willing to give in to redundant, baseless accusations that are a waste of energy, time, effort and resources.
I'm confident that those I helped elect into power have far more vast confidential knowledge than you or I put together, and based on that knowledge, find there is no reason or basis for impeachment of either Bush &/or Cheney. Again, if there had been reason or basis, they would have already initiated hearings and they would have been impeached by now.
Impeachment... N-O-T gonna happen.
For the record, you're the only one showing an interest in it, as evidenced in your poll and comments on other threads!
{big sigh}
"A point of view is only a view from a point..." ~ Unknown
Baseless Accusations
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 1:59pm.It's obvious that you don't take the time to read or process the articles I link to or the comments I make.
Accusations of Bush Administration wrongdoing are far from baseless.
Read these and get back to me:
Elizabeth de la Vega, United States v. George Bush et al., Conspiracy to Defraud the United States:
Part one: bringing bush to court
Part two: indicting bush
Part three: a predisposition to invade
Also see Congressman John Conyers' report, "Constitution in Crisis."
This is by no means a complete or exhaustive listing of information in support of impeachment. It is enough to show that impeachment has a real and solid foundation of support in the reality based world.
I support impeachment
Submitted by JulieM on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 4:13pm.Wexler is almost as nutty as Kucinich...
Submitted by Tschida on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 2:42pm.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in. Thomas Sowell
?
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 2:57pm.Nutty is as nutty does
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 3:35pm.Please provide examples to accompany your judgement of these two men, Wexler and Kucinich, Members of the Congress of the United States of America.
"Nutty" doesn't cut it for constructive dialogue.
UFO's anyone?
Submitted by Tschida on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 10:51pm.Wexler is suffering from Bush derangement syndrome, just like so many others. Nutty is just fine. If you don't like it, sorry for you. If you spent half the time you waste convincing yourself that Bush can and should be impeached, reading things that oppose the view you have so strongly believe in, you might actualy come to find somebalance, and context. C. One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in. Thomas Sowell
sorry for you
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Tue, 02/12/2008 - 12:43am.Why sorry for me?
Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 02/12/2008 - 8:58am.Do you think that
A) I don't support holding politicians accountable?
B) That finding context and balance is vital in understanding issues?
C) That I should be allowed to use my vocabulary as I see fit?
Just wondering why you said that.
C.
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Feeling Sorry
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Tue, 02/12/2008 - 11:20am.Chris, I am exasperated by your views. I struggle to understand you. It seems to me that you are insincere in your participation. You seem to have a personal agenda, but you present yourself as coming from the arena of public interest and common sense - just doing the right thing.
A) Do you support holding politicians accountable? It seems that you would support holding Hilary Clinton accountable, but not Bush. That's fine. Just admit to your bias. It seems to me like you are an "ends justify the means" sort of player.
B) Context and balance are critical in the understanding of an issue. Logical analysis and a recognition of other arguments is also important.
C) In terms of your vocabulary, I don't the use of language that is unnecessarily harsh, divisive, inflammatory, mean, hateful, or cruel. You can get your point across without calling people names and being generally disrespectful.
Justice
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 1:05pm.If we don't hold members of the Bush Administration accountable now, what is to stop future administrations (not necessarily the next one) from doing the same things? Who or what will, in the future, stand up to a president that makes false statements in order to perpetrate an aggressive invasion of a sovereign nation?
"...impeachment hearings in year 3 of each term"
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 1:07pm.Impeachment
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 1:14pm.We don't need mandatory impeachment proceedings in year 3 of every president's term.
What we need, instead, are legislators, representatives and senators in the US Congress, who take their oaths to the Constitution, and their duty to provide oversight of the Executive Administration, with appropriate seriousness and gravity.
This is an extremely grave and urgent matter. Millions of people have died and suffer because members of the Bush admin. perpetrated a war based on false pretenses. If we don't hold people accountable for lying a nation into war, a war that will cost trillions of dollars and result in the suffering of millions of people, then what indeed should we hold people accountable for?
How do we hold you accountable Rob,
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 1:28pm.Next President
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 1:45pm.What assurance do we have that the next president will not partake in the same types of behavior evinced by the Bush Administration?
Surely, there is the possibility that a Clinton WH would take on a similarly warring mentality as it relates to foreign policy.
Please explain to me exactly how impeachment proceedings, if handled responsibly and with the grave seriousness and appropriateness that they require, would interfere with the election.
I think that impeachment, by revealing the absolute nature of Bush Administration wrongdoing, would potentially increase the Democrats strength in the presidential election. That's what happened after Nixon's impeachment. It helped in the polls for Democrats.
Fine questions Rob
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 2:18pm.First, we have no assurances, ever. However, I am willing to bet heavily that Obama will not behave like Bush. Just as you probably believe Dennis would not act like Bush. There is no indication that Clinton would be as bellicose as Bush. I am pretty sure she would place considerably more emphasis on diplomacy and statesmanship than the current administration.
As I said earlier, I would have supported impeachment had the process started several years ago, as was the case with the Nixon scandal. The work of a special prosecutor and congressional hearings did a lot to lay the groundwork for possible impeachment...which Nixon avoided by resigning. We did not impeach Richard Nixon, he quit.
Two things...
Submitted by Tschida on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 2:49pm.Nixon was not impeached. Second was Carter better or worse for America than Ford?
C.
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in. Thomas Sowell
So you hold as truth, Robert,
Submitted by Tschida on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 2:46pm.That we are as safe or less safe with Saddam out of power, and held to account for his crimes, say here in the US, or Israel? Yes or no to each place? Are the people of Iraq safer, enjoy more or less freedom than before we eliminated Saddam? Is Iran more or less contained as a state sponsor of terror because of our involvment in Iraq/Afghanistan? C. One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in. Thomas Sowell
working within a logical framework
Submitted by enpen on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 2:57pm.Those questions all demand answers that in the end are opinion and are immaterial to whether or not the Bush administration committed impeachable offenses.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
What Jason said.
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 3:04pm.Less Safe
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Tue, 02/12/2008 - 11:23am."We" are less safe with Saddam out of power. There was no terrorism in Iraq prior to the invasion/occupation and removal of Saddam from power.
The people of Iraq are suffering and they have decidedly less freedom now than prior to the invasion/occupation.
can I have a helping of facts?
Submitted by chad360 on Tue, 02/12/2008 - 12:44pm.I'd just need to see data about what you are saying because I'm so ignorant about Iraq.
I'm not sure I agree.
Saddam was an ex-CIA puppet, no? I can't believe that he didn't use terrorism as a way to control citizen-prisoners in Iraq, and /or have to deal with terrorism while he was in power.
As far as evaluating US national security, I'd say that regime change in Iraq has little to do with US security (then or now).
This "action" that the US is involved with in Iraq is a resource war in it's infancy from my point-of-view (simple as that)...the US is just testing UCAVs & railguns & microwave lasers to get on board for the next big battlefield tech paradigm shift.
I have no doubt folks in Iraq have suffered, are suffering, and will suffer...primarily because of proximity to valuable natural resource "commodities".
Sure Mr. Whitlock
Submitted by Tschida on Wed, 02/13/2008 - 12:36pm.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Actually,...
Submitted by Rick on Wed, 02/13/2008 - 1:31pm....Rob's completely right. Terrorism was not a concern before the invasion. It became an AQ training ground after. No one I know really disputes that. No distortion on Rob's part.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
No one you know of!
Submitted by Tschida on Wed, 02/13/2008 - 4:52pm.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
this is what I got -
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 02/13/2008 - 4:57pm.Take off the quotations marks
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 02/13/2008 - 5:05pm.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
Internet search
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Thu, 02/14/2008 - 12:16am.Perhaps you missed this Gug.
Submitted by Tschida on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 3:10pm.Robert said, "This is an extremely grave and urgent matter. Millions of people have died and suffer because members of the Bush admin. perpetrated a war based on false pretenses. If we don't hold people accountable for lying a nation into war, a war that will cost trillions of dollars and result in the suffering of millions of people, then what indeed should we hold people accountable for? I responded to this in my questions. Particularly the suffering of millions bit. But maybe you missed that in your attempt to be snide. Who knows. C. »One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in. Thomas Sowell
Rob is discribing what he sees as the consequences of
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 3:27pm.I agree with Rob -- Bush & Cheney deserve to be impeached
Submitted by rainy gray on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 3:38pm.Impeachable offense I: The president and vice president knowingly used fraudulent information to persuade Congress and the American people to support the Iraq War.
Impeachable offense II: Dismissed civil liberties and due process, and tortured prisoners.
Impeachable offence [sic]III: Illegal spying on U.S. citizens without a warrant.
Impeachable offence [sic]IV: Refusal to obey more than 800 laws by the use of "signing statements." The president, vice president and civil officers in the Bush administration must be held accountable for their crimes. Our elected officials took an oath to uphold and protect the Constitution. Changes to our constitution by Bush/Cheney threaten our democracy; the president and vice president must be held accountable.
(What is wrong with those copy-editors at the Olympian?)
Certainly, many people I know are in favor of impeachment but feel that it's unlikely to happen given the current political climate.
Yes, the political climate for impeachment is chilly
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 3:44pm.Agreed!
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 4:59pm.And as I've said before, I admire the dedication of those who pursue what they view as the wrongs in the world and wish I had the passion and same determination!
"A point of view is only a view from a point..." ~ Unknown
You still owe me a scotch
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 5:03pm.I Haven't Forgotten!
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 5:04pm.a specific malt scotch if I recall?!
"A point of view is only a view from a point..." ~ Unknown
It is chilly because what you offer is not reality...
Submitted by Tschida on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 10:58pm.Each of the three items is not reality.Who's civil liberties were actually dismissed? I am just guessing here but I am pretty sure there is much more to the FISA court stuff than you seem to think is going on. and so on. In context, with common sense these charges don't hold. It is why he is not being impeached right now. C. One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in. Thomas Sowell
No Tsch
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 02/12/2008 - 7:12am.If...
Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 02/12/2008 - 9:10am.If impeachment were such a slam dunk the liberal lefts in congress would be all over it. If it were so cut and dry, so clear, it would not be to costly politically. It is not a slam dunk. They know this. They know how damaging it was to have Clinton impeached to the credibility of the nation and our government, and then to not have the resolve to convict him. The lack of support for, the lack of evidence of high crimes and misdemeanors is what makes the case for impeachment too costly.
C.
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
The most liberal members of congress ARE all over it
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 02/12/2008 - 9:21am.what they deserve...
Submitted by chad360 on Mon, 02/11/2008 - 4:50pm....will be far from what they get...unless their goal is to be on Fox like Rove >grin<
The sick irony is that I don't believe they could be impeached-
They certainly cannot be impeached for poor military "intelligence", or performance...
...maybe some of that awful detainment stuff will haunt them, but I dunno--
As far as I'm concerned, the whole debacle is a distraction from the militarization of space (true goal of domination theorists).
There is such a complex web of information to correctly parse in all of this that I'm sure the table is open for debate all over the place-
What should I do (in response to all of this political turmoil) living in Olympia in 2008? I dunno...
...maybe the topic of another thread.
I wish I could figure out
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Tue, 02/12/2008 - 12:47am.Tschida
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Tue, 02/12/2008 - 12:51am.ON my computer the page width is fine.
Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 02/12/2008 - 9:11am.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Well, that's all that matters then!
Submitted by OlyDowntowner on Tue, 02/12/2008 - 10:28am.How do I fix a problem I don't see?
Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 02/12/2008 - 10:33am.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
by discontinuing the html formatting
Submitted by OlyDowntowner on Tue, 02/12/2008 - 10:39am.By invading Iraq!
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 02/12/2008 - 10:51am.Huge waste of time. How
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 02/12/2008 - 12:28pm.get to work Norm
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 02/12/2008 - 12:56pm.Both have their uses
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 02/12/2008 - 1:06pm.They both keep me healthy, I'm not wasting anything by purchasing them.
What good has come from all of the energy you spend running your head into this brick-wall you call "impeachment"?
Your confusing your Robs, friend
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 02/12/2008 - 1:12pm.ATTN ROB
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 02/12/2008 - 1:36pm.You're right, I confused my Rob's
TRY READING THE F'ING TITLE OF THE THREAD! He wants other folks opinions, it's a DAMN POLL!
Who am I to judge? The question was asked, and I gave a response. Did I ask you, "Rob R. how can I possibly better spend my money so it isn't spent on myself?" ? Hmm, I don't recall asking you that, I wonder why?
Rob, when it comes to this topic, I like being "a jerk", at least in your eyes. This is a complete waste.
SO, again, please read the title of the thread, then get back to me on who is really off base here with their comments. Thanks.....prick
But Rob has to run his head against a brick wall
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 02/12/2008 - 1:31pm.Otherwise He'd be too handsome and smart for words. He's actually doing us all a great favor.
Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
My two cents
Submitted by Phil Owen on Wed, 02/13/2008 - 1:22pm.I support putting off the issue and voting for Obama. I don't think the Bush administration should be tried in a US court. They should be tried in an Iraqi court. I think, after he's elected, Obama should hand over Bush, Cheney, et al, to the Iraqi's. It might be a good first step in re-establishing global good faith towards the US.
The Canaanite's Call
Interesting Idea
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Wed, 02/13/2008 - 1:57pm.