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Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Fri, 01/18/2008 - 1:53am.
Stryker vehicles that returned from Iraq last November are being repaired and restored for "combat readiness" according to The Olympian. Do you want the war to stop? If so, what are you doing about it?
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Yes - working on public policy
Submitted by Mike on Fri, 01/18/2008 - 8:28am.and public education, trying to stimulate folks to think about a different way of life with a profoundly different national energy policy that would reduce our dependence on foreign oil because I think Iraq and Afghanistan are primarily resource wars, crony wars, war profiteer events.
Continue to try to help americans realize that empire is a dangerous mirage even if you get to drive a Hummer toward the mirage.
"You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake."
-- Jeannette Rankin
(1880-1973) first woman elected to the United States House of Representatives and the first female member of Congress
http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quote_blog/Jeannette.Rankin.Quote.454F
On a purely practical note...
Submitted by wilson on Fri, 01/18/2008 - 9:32am.It's a matter of short-term
Submitted by Ehver Green on Fri, 01/18/2008 - 9:53am.It's a matter of short-term thinking vs. long-term planning. No such thing as short-term planning. When lives are involved, both US and Iraqi, long-term planning is the only option available. Practically speaking of course.
Don't forget, the groups who protest and block vehicles are generally against any form of a military.
Not true.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 01/18/2008 - 12:09pm.Agreed
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 01/18/2008 - 12:28pm.Self-Defense
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Fri, 01/18/2008 - 3:07pm.Aggressive and belligerent military campaigns are antithetical to the founding spirit of this nation. I believe aggressive military actions go against the most basic values of the American People.
I won't argue against self-defense; in fact, I believe that opposition to the current illegitimate, unlawful, harmful and immoral 'wars' of aggression is self-defense.
I also oppose the current culture of violence, hate, and oppression that has sprung up in our nation's military communities.
So Rob W,
Submitted by JT on Fri, 01/18/2008 - 5:02pm.you are a supporter of Radical Islam?
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Where did that come from?
Submitted by Rick on Fri, 01/18/2008 - 5:05pm.> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
hey
Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 01/18/2008 - 5:06pm.Warrant of Response
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Fri, 01/18/2008 - 5:18pm.I don't know to what you refer when you say "Radical Islam." Perhaps it is terrorism.
I don't support terrorism, but I will tell you what does.
It is our government, John. For Example, our government supported the Taliban in Afghanistan in order to prevent Russia from gaining territorial control. Our government has armed and supported the indoctrination and philosophy behind terrorism.
When the OPD allowed military weapons to be shipped through the Port of Olympia, it was supporting terrorism. By allowing the shipments, the Port of Olympia and the OPD enabled a belligerent military action. This belligerent military action provokes terrorists and terrorism. It foments anti-American sentiments.
Although your comment doesn't warrant a response, I will give you one anyway, maybe just this once. I do not support terrorism. But it seems that the OPD does.
Oh Mr. Whitlock,
Submitted by JT on Fri, 01/18/2008 - 5:35pm.you suffer from the same timeline issues that Phil Owen and Rob R. do on the issue of Radical Islam and Christianity.
What this country did with the Taliban vs Russia was a separate issue. We have gotten in bed with other less desirables, i.e. Saddam Hussein for our own national security. Have the decisions all been good ones, that is debatable. But what happened 20 years ago with the Taliban is old news and is apples and oranges now.
How you connect the Iraq war is the USA supporting terrorism is wild at best. I would love to read your rational on that.
As far as OPD, they as an organization are tasked with enforcing the law. PMR was breaking the law. If PMR was having an event and the military came and blocked PMR's movement, OPD would be there to stop that as well. So don't make these wild jumps of delusional compositions like you did to get to OPD supports terrorism.
As for my comment, it wasn't a comment, it was a question. I expected an answer, and I thought I would get an answer of value, but I was wrong.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Please don't pull me into this one.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 01/18/2008 - 5:57pm.Actually,
Submitted by Phil Owen on Fri, 01/18/2008 - 8:22pm.according to one recent blogger, you're in it. You're waaaay in it.
Delusional Leaps
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Fri, 01/18/2008 - 8:04pm.It is also clear that the war in Iraq is exacerbating and provoking terrorism. I am sorry that you don't see the connection. Because it is not wild. There are many who see this reality. Honestly, I don't understand how you can't see it. Perhaps you still believe that Iraq possessed Weapons of Mass Destruction. Perhaps you believe that the government of Saddam Hussein somehow posed a threat to the security of the USA. Perhaps you fail to see the logic behind the war on terror as a facade to cover up the conquest of Middle Eastern Oil Resources.
John, the economy of the USA (and the rest of the industrialized world) is so heavily invested in the petroleum infrastructure that it has created a dependency. In order to maintain our society, we need that oil. That's the problem. This society is addicted to oil. Now we have a situation where over a million innocent Iraqi civilians have died because of a territorial conquest motivated by the desire to control a natural resource.
Does that make sense to you?
Instead of such a loaded question
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 01/18/2008 - 5:31pm.Do you want the war to stop?
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Fri, 01/18/2008 - 7:54pm.Second - how do you define "radical Islam?" And why do you think I support it?
Rob, A Question for You.
Submitted by Jeff Brigham on Sat, 01/19/2008 - 10:44pm.In your comment above; For what reason did you post my photo? Are you attempting to link me with your notional “current culture of violence, hate, and oppression that has sprung up in our nation's military communities”?
Jeff Brigham
Sure Jeff
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Sun, 01/20/2008 - 12:26am.Yes, by us defeating the terrorists.
Submitted by Jeff Brigham on Sun, 01/20/2008 - 12:33am.Jeff Brigham
Yes
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Sun, 01/20/2008 - 12:42am.Rob, It is surprising that
Submitted by Jeff Brigham on Sun, 01/20/2008 - 1:34am.It is surprising that you did not catch a group of Oly PMR “protesters” who came over to the corner where the Pro-Troop people were standing and deliberately tried to obstruct our signs and intimidate our people. They did the same thing on that Tuesday and Wednesday nights. I resist the urge to hit them, so I use peaceful, non-violent methods to combat their harassing tactics.
You may not like my sign but I definitely did not violate the rights of my fellow citizens. I did not violate the rights of fellow citizens by illegally blocking access of public roads to legal traffic. That’s Oly PMR! I did not bring infants and young children into the street and deliberately place them in front of large trucks to stop those trucks. That’s Oly PMR! I did not throw trash and push dumpsters into public streets and arrogantly interfere with public access to public streets. That’s Oly PMR! I did not throw rocks at Police Officers performing their duty of keeping public roads open for lawful traffic. That’s Oly PMR.
If you desire to study violence, hate, and oppression, you don’t need to look over in our direction. You and your PMR associates can study hate, violence, and oppression by simply gathering together and observing each other. You should study Oly PMR’s culture of violence, hate, oppression, arrogance, and demonstrated lack of respect for the rights of their fellow citizens.
Jeff Brigham
Doesn't belong
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Sun, 01/20/2008 - 1:42am.IMHO
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Sun, 01/20/2008 - 10:27am.Posting his photo without his permission and using him as a way to make your point does open the door to him posting here. My impression with your response to him is you either don't like or can't understand his position since it's in such opposition to yours so it's easier, and you counter with, telling him to start another thread.
He point blank asked you a question and instead of answering him, you counter with your own question. A question he obviously (to me anyway) has already answered when you used his photo to make your point.
That's how it works around here. The you don't belong here's & start another or your thread's really aren't productive to achieving the interaction Olyblog is struggling to have.
Agreed, posting that person's picture
Submitted by Guglielmo on Sun, 01/20/2008 - 10:36am.You're Right
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Sun, 01/20/2008 - 10:52am.I disapprove of Jeff's behavior. His actions promote hate, misunderstanding and division. I dislike that.
I understand Jeff. He obfuscates, he maligns, misaligns, deceives, lies, and refuses to listen to reason. His worldview is obtuse and depends on his belief in falsity and fabrication. For example, he believes (and espouses the belief) that the USA found WMD in Iraq. He is like a mini FOX News outlet. from Jeff:
God, that Brigham quotation is evil
Submitted by Guglielmo on Sun, 01/20/2008 - 11:11am.Evil is a little harsh, don't you think?
Submitted by Mike on Sun, 01/20/2008 - 12:12pm.I disagree Mike. Evil is not a harsh characterization.
Submitted by Guglielmo on Sun, 01/20/2008 - 12:47pm.Apology Accepted
Submitted by Jeff Brigham on Sun, 01/20/2008 - 12:40pm.Rob,
Apology accepted. Now, let’s work on some of your other accusations and falsehoods.
You say my “His actions promote hate, misunderstanding and division”. You are actually speaking of Oly PMR. It is the members of Oly PMR that violate the rights of their fellow citizens of Thurston County. Deliberately committing illegal acts that violate the rights of other citizens promotes hate, misunderstanding and division.
Your “example” of “he believes (and espouses the belief) that the USA found WMD in Iraq.” is not accurate. I have said that the U.S. has found evidence of WMDs in Iraq. I have also said that Saddam Hussein not only possessed WMDs but had repeatedly used WMDs.
You say I “obfuscates, he maligns, misaligns, deceives, lies, and refuses to listen to reason.” You are talking more about yourself with that statement. I would guess though, that your “refuses to listen to reason” is your definition of not believing the same as you. Again, you are talking about yourself more than me.
As far as Rachel Corrie and her actions; I believe that the false portrayal of her as some sort of "peace activist" is ignorant, revolting, and highly offensive. Also, before anyone gets up on a high horse, remember that I did not make her into a PUBLIC SYMBOL! Various local and national groups and individuals have repeatedly used her as a PUBLIC SYMBOL to attack the nation of Israel in its fight for survival and also as a PUBLIC SYMBOL to attack the Caterpillar company for legitimate and legal sales of its products. Are you and others willing to stop using her as a PUBLIC SYMBOL?? Also remember that I have never held that sign or any like it at any memorial services or “vigils” for Rachel Corrie.
No Thank You
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Tue, 01/22/2008 - 10:11am.To Jeff:
Your statement (above) is a perfect example of obfuscation.
I have made efforts to dialog about our differences regarding the war and you have demonstrated a consistent aversion to the effects of reason.
You continue to claim that the Hussein Regime possessed WMD to threaten the USA (or its allies.) Yet you have produced no evidence of fact. A claim of this nature requires evidence, Jeff.
Rachel Corrie was a peace activist, Jeff. You are wrong to be offended by the actions of peace activists. Are you blind to the suffering and oppression of the Palestinian people?
To deny that Rachel Corrie was a peace activist is insulting. I think that it is worthy of disciplinary measures. You owe Rachel Corrie and peace activists an apology.
Sorry Rob,
Submitted by JT on Tue, 01/22/2008 - 12:07pm.I have to agree with Jeff. Rachel Corrie was an activist, but an activist for peace I disagree with you on completely. When she chose sides, she chose wrong. She was a traitor to this country and a terrorist sympathizer.
But to Rachel's credit she did have something PMR doesn't have. She had courage and heart. Rachel went to a war zone, and put herself on a line. Not really a front line, but a line never the less, and in a very dangerous part of the world. But Rachel made a serious miscalculation. She thought the Israeli army would play nice/nice like OPD does with PMR. She found out that other places in the world play by different rules. Some of that clouded thinking Rachel used in Palestine has it's roots in this community. So I believe this community has some ownership in her death. Her parents, her college, her professors, and her friends and co-believers.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
So with statements like that
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 01/22/2008 - 12:14pm.Nope,
Submitted by JT on Tue, 01/22/2008 - 12:19pm.didn't say they were all terrorists, any more than all Israelis are warmongers as some from the other side of this debate tend to believe.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Then why is Rachel a
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 01/22/2008 - 12:23pm.If all you can come up with is the picture of her burning the flag that's not enough.
Merwyn,
Submitted by JT on Tue, 01/22/2008 - 12:57pm.there is all kinds of info on Rachel and who she decided to bed down with. Here is a bit of info with a very short search. Of course I would expect many here will be dismissive of the info, so my taking the time to post it is 30 minutes of my life I will never get back and nothing will change, she will still be a hero and a martyr. For your consumption:
1. Corrie went to the Gaza Strip in 2003 as part of the International Solidarity Movement (ISM). Founded in 2001, ISM refers to a "right" of Palestinian "armed struggle" and seeks "to establish divestment campaigns in the
Corrie did her part to incite anti-Americanism in the Gaza Strip, 70 percent whose residents support suicide bombings (see Merwyn you are right not all of the palestinians are terrorists or supportive of that act.) of according to a recent poll by the Gaza-based Palestinian Society for Culture, Science and Development
2. "fighters" who "killed two of the illegal occupying force," Corrie wrote that "more Martyrs are ready to defend the honor of
3. Corrie operated in the town of
4. The IDF notes, "The smuggling tunnels are often elaborate, and may contain wood-paneling, electrical infrastructure, communications equipment, and elevators. Small tunneling machines, imported with the full knowledge of the Palestinian Authority, are used to dig these subterranean passages."
5. The IDF demolishes such houses complicit in terrorism6. Arafat’s Fatah movement organized a wake for Corrie attended by members of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade. (birds of a feather huh, Merwyn?)
I could go on and on but for what end. Your mind is made up as is mine.
Helping the Palestinians with their struggle, their terror activities is not a peace activist. Seems Corrie was more of soldier than a peace activist. If she wanted peace why didn't she go to the terror strongholds in Palestine and encourage them to stop their bomb building? Why didn't she get active in stopping Palestine rather than aiding them?
Not all that support terrorism have bombs and guns in their house Merwyn. Some times they provide a place to sleep, hide, or money to further a cause. If Israel got it wrong with the specific house that Corrie was protecting, that is a bummer. Those things happen in war, war is not anti-septic. But given some of the info above, I question whether Israel got it all that wrong.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
In the Course of EventsMaybe
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Wed, 01/23/2008 - 6:51pm.In the Course of EventsMaybe this belongs in another thread, but just a couple quick pointers: The IDF demolishes houses to build the Separation Wall - a structure that is deemed illegal under international agreements.
Also, the ISM may support legitimate armed resistance (i.e. self-defense), but I am sure that the ISM does not support terrorism. There must be some misunderstanding.
Also, it would be appropriate to provide references to the quotes and statistics that you list above
What exactly is a "terrorist sympathizer"
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 01/22/2008 - 12:31pm.Your Opinions vs "Reason"
Submitted by Jeff Brigham on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 11:17am.Robert,
Again, you are confusing disagreement with your opinions with “consistent aversion to the effects of reason”.
As far as the question of whether Iraq had WMDs? Not only did Saddam posses WMDs, he USED WMDs! Saddam killed thousands of his own people with chemical weapons. Some of these same chemicals, much diluted, were found in the Tigris river by our forces right after the invasion. And, No, we did not give those chemical weapons to Iraq. That is another oft repeated lie.
Examples; The Halabja poison gas attack and the Al-Anfal Campaign with the widespread use of chemical weapons. See http://www.hrw.org/reports/1991/IRAQ913.htm#7 Want more? Go to Google and do a search for “Halabja” or “al-Anfal Campaign” and you will find tons more.
I definitely DO NOT owe an apology to your designated “peace activists”. Rather, Rachel Corrie supporting “peace activists” owe apologies to the people of Israel. I myself have, upon meeting several Israeli citizens, personally apologized to them for the contemptible actions of Rachel Corrie.
As far as your “I think that it is worthy of disciplinary measures.” comment; I think that you are losing your grip on reality! Exactly what country do you think you are in? Cuba? Vietnam? What's next, a Corp of Thought Police that I can expect at my door?
Jeff Brigham
Anti-war isn't pro-troop?
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Tue, 01/22/2008 - 1:50pm.pro-war is pro-troop?
Facinating.
Not a very difficult link to make
Submitted by Guglielmo on Sun, 01/20/2008 - 2:44am.Granted, as a secular humanist...
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Tue, 01/22/2008 - 12:29pm.I might be lacking in the inside story about God, these days, but considering that I was raised in the United Methodist Church and was formerly a Youth Director in said church, I can't, for the life of me, understand why God would be requested to bless a bulldozer that killed someone.
If this is the direction of Christianity, I'm certain I've made the correct decision.
One thing I heard regarding the blocking of returning vehicles
Submitted by Mike on Sat, 01/19/2008 - 7:06pm.that really made me stop and think was that the troops who were waiting for the equipment at Ft Lewis were unable to leave the base and get time with their families because the vehicles had to be cleaned up a bit, inventoried, etc before the soldiers could be released for time with their families.
This really bothered me when I heard it. I was generally supportive of stopping the war machine in its tracks, doesn't matter if it was coming or going, but the idea that soldiers were sitting around waiting at the base before they could be released to be family members bothers me. I am still mulling it over. I sense a shortage of easy answers.
You really can't protest the
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Sat, 01/19/2008 - 9:30pm.You really can't protest the war machine or any armed engagement our country is in without affecting the personnel which keep the machine functioning.
But if you're going to protest I would say doing so at the port while blockading equipment is a better option than spitting on people coming back from the airport and one soldiers - while they may not agree with - can at least understand.
I'd say that's the biggest thing people are worried about today. Traveling by plane around the U.S., people would always come up to me in the airport and either talk about their own military experience or mention a son/nephew/daughter/niece, etc. that's in the military. They did the same with any other soldier in uniform.
An anonymous patron picking up your tab while you're eating is not out of the ordinary, either.
People are definitely concerned about soldiers not getting the same treatment as those who served during Vietnam (of which those veterans also make it a point to recognize current soldiers, too).
Personally, I prefer to be low-key in public and find it a bit awkward.
Agreed Rob, and yep, they're
Submitted by NWarty on Fri, 01/18/2008 - 12:21pm.Maybe a bit,
Submitted by JT on Fri, 01/18/2008 - 5:11pm.but not quite if you read this quote,
"I won't argue against self-defense; in fact, I believe that opposition to the current illegitimate, unlawful, harmful and immoral 'wars' of aggression is self-defense."
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
I believe that Rob...
Submitted by Rick on Fri, 01/18/2008 - 5:14pm....is referring to defending the Constitution of the United States. It has been abused by the Bush administration, and could be further weakened by future Presidents if it is not defended.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
Say if
Submitted by JT on Fri, 01/18/2008 - 5:17pm.you are Rob's spokesman, perhaps Tschida will be mine.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Do you want the war to stop? If so what are you doin bout it?
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 01/18/2008 - 6:21pm.Song of America
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Sat, 01/19/2008 - 11:05am." there appears to be no one left to stop us"
Submitted by Guglielmo on Sat, 01/19/2008 - 11:15am.My Approach is Personal Lifestyle...
Submitted by Chia on Sun, 01/20/2008 - 11:47am.I have also supported protests by crafting items to be sold as fundraisers for legal costs.
I also am openly anti-war and advocate for wholistic nonviolence, regardless of who might be the perpetrator and who might be the victim, so that our militaristic culture can become more sensitized to the suffering and violence that we now consider to be "normal".
---------
Nonviolence Includes Animals:
audio
"PETA President Ingrid E. Newkirk's address to the International Nonviolence Conference in Bethlehem"
Personal Lifestyle
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 01/21/2008 - 8:53pm.One of the problems with our current society is that the Earth gets taken for granted. If we learn to appreciate the beauty and wonder of this planet, we would definitely benefit. I like this quote by Aldo Leopold:"We abuse land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect."
That is a wonderful quote.
Submitted by Chia on Mon, 01/21/2008 - 9:12pm.On the other hand, to do without is poverty, and that can be heartless. Community resourcefulness allows for shared access to goods which can help alleviate the sting of poverty.
Thank you for all that you do to help change our societal habits. (And thanks for posting the awesome photos, too!)
---------
Nonviolence Includes Animals:
audio
"PETA President Ingrid E. Newkirk's address to the International Nonviolence Conference in Bethlehem"
Do I want the war to end?
Submitted by JT on Tue, 01/22/2008 - 12:15pm.Absolutely!
But the end to this war is far from ever being over. The battles in Iraq and Afganistan are just that. When we leave each of those countries, hopefully victorious, we will have other battlegrounds in this war. This country could very well be one of those battlegrounds.
So yes, I would love for the battles to be over and the threat of terrorism extinguished. But that won't occur when we leave Iraq and Afganistan.
So a question for you, Rob W. If/when the battle comes to this land, will you take up arms to fight the threat? Or will you let others die to protect you? What will you do to protect your country? Will you have the same passion to protect it from a foreign threat, as you do to stop the return of equipment from war?
What will you do, Rob?
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Global War on Terror
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 01/22/2008 - 12:22pm.Hey JT,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 01/22/2008 - 1:03pm.JT's post from above...
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 01/22/2008 - 1:13pm....reproduced so that we can actually read it:
partial response
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Tue, 01/22/2008 - 7:51pm.Also, the ISM may support legitimate armed resistance (i.e. self-defense), but I am sure that the ISM does not support terrorism. There must be some misunderstanding.
Also, it would be appropriate to provide references to the quotes and statistics that you list above.
who wants the war to continue?
Submitted by chad360 on Wed, 01/23/2008 - 10:45am.I think that many want the "war" to exist, and I'm confused about what to "do" about it--
--mindful consumerism is a key element, though (for sure).
There really isn't any actual way to "turn off" the government is there?
I'm thinking about recent legislation and changes in law after 9/11.
Oh, PS: I didn't realize what the picture is about, but now I get it! What a cruel sign, that guy ought to be ashamed of himself...if that is not hate speach I do not know what is-
JT
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/23/2008 - 1:12pm.I believe the quotation you provided "more Martyrs are ready to defend the honor of Palestine" is a fabrication. Please give us a source (not just the person who quite possibly made it up) or issue a retraction. I think it is important to stand by the things we post on Olyblog and to own up when we are mistaken. What do you think?
...members of OlyBlog agree to the following practices:
I think this probably meets 4 out of the 6 requirements listed above.
Note questionable and biased sources
Submitted by Ehver Green on Wed, 01/23/2008 - 3:02pm.This doesn't happen often enough wouldn't you agree?
I totally agree.
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/23/2008 - 3:43pm.Ah Guggy boy,
Submitted by JT on Wed, 01/23/2008 - 5:05pm.no can do. I went through a bunch of links on Google rather quickly, and didn't bother to save them or link to them. I have no interest in trying to find any of them again, as this debate isn't worth my time to provide what you want. I know several were publications that are empathetic to the Israeli cause. Others were conservative sites, so I doubt any of the pro-corrie crowd would accept them anyway, claiming bias and the like. And maybe the sites are bias, but bias doesn't mean they are incorrect.
If the docents think I need a wack for violating the rules, they can give me a wack.
I would like to say I won't ever do it again, (fail to provide the required supporting info). Since most things in life aren't a sure thing, I can't give that promise either. I will be mindful of it though.
As for the Corrie worship here, I won't step on any toes again. Now if there is a debate about Cat, the lawsuit, etc. I likely won't be able to resist.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
I know the sites you are referring to
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/23/2008 - 5:19pm.Good luck with this approach, Gug.
Submitted by Mike on Wed, 01/23/2008 - 8:37pm.Thanks. Not the results I hoped for.
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/23/2008 - 10:14pm."because is it a lie."
Submitted by JT on Wed, 01/23/2008 - 5:35pm.how are you sure about that?
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
The burden of proof is squarely on you JT
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/23/2008 - 5:40pm.I am also willing to bet that there is no such thing as the
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/23/2008 - 6:12pm.Palestinian Society for Culture, Science and Development. At least, a search on the net results in only seven hits, three of which are related to your post. The others only regurgitate each other's rather unsubstantiated "facts." Am I certain the organization is fiction, no. But I sure would like some evidence of it's existence other than the FrontPage article. Pretty darn suspicious sounding to me. Funny how we accept information more easily when it aligns with our prejudices. Perhaps I've even done that on occasion. It aint easy being objective.
I agree it likely isn't easy
Submitted by JT on Wed, 01/23/2008 - 7:21pm.being objective, and when you acknowledge that, you win points in my book. I doubt the Mike's of the blog would do that. Anyway regardless, I will admit, I will give the Israelis the benefit of doubt before I will the Palestinians.
No Merwyn, that isn't a race based decision. I really feel the Israelis are victims in this conflict. They aren't always without fault, but I will almost always side with Israel.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Israel Victimized
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Wed, 01/23/2008 - 7:32pm.But I also think it is important to realize Palestine existed before Israel. When Israel came into being there was conflict, because the land was being colonized.
I think empathy is of critical importance in situations like the one between Israel and Palestine. Imagine how it would be if the land you lived on was colonized by strangers? They came with an attitude of absolute entitlement. They said, correctly or not, that they were reclaiming ancestral homeland. I realize the flawed analogy, but how would you feel if Native Americans built a a 15 foot high concrete wall around your neighborhood?
Tremendously difficult to be objective
Submitted by Mike on Wed, 01/23/2008 - 8:33pm.Personally
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 01/23/2008 - 10:54pm.I cannot sleep Norm
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 9:23am.???
Submitted by Norm on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 5:13pm.My comment was toward the conflict in Israel/Palestine, I hope I didn't come across the wrong way.
Ha!!
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 5:25pm.Lol
Submitted by Norm on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 5:33pm.Oh Nice Gug,
Submitted by JT on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 10:36am.resorting to name calling now, huh!? ;-)
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
That's very funny
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 10:45am.Well against my better judgement,
Submitted by JT on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 12:08pm.I have wasted about 6 hours of my life researching Corrie, ISM, Palestine, etc. All that has really come out of that is I'm more solidified in my choice of sides in this particular conflict. Further, my opinion of Corrie has further declined.
But in my search on the quote Gug is so concerned with my posting here, I found nothing to "prove" it wasn't said or written. A pro-Israel site seems to be the genesis to the reporting of the comment. There were some pro-Palestine sites/postings that stamped their feet and pouted about the comment, but no evidence from them to disprove it. So absent an ability to disprove it, and since it came from the side I support in this conflict, no retraction from me.
Also, there are lots of reasons to believe ISM is involved with more than just peaceful operations in the region. Do I have a smoking gun, nope, and I doubt any one does, yet. ISM isn't ran by dummies, and they know negative press would hurt their ability to aid the Palestinians in their armed conflict. But the pro-Israel sites do make a good argument for ISM to be involved in the dirtier side of the Palestinian conflict.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
I'm sorry JT, but you've got
Submitted by Phil Owen on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 12:27pm.I'm sorry JT, but you've got the burden of proof wrong. In order to prove you wrong, I'd have to post everything Rachel ever wrote, to show the quote wasn't there. All you need do is look it up and cite it so we can see where it came from. Again, I don't think she actually wrote it, and if she did, it was no doubt taken out of context and turned against her.
As for ISM being "involved in the dirtier side of the Palestinian conflict", I'd suggest talking with some local ISMer's. There are lots of them. Phan would probably be happy to answer your questions, and when Will gets back to town (he'll likely be staying on my couch), he might be willing to talk with you as well. Both have participated in ISM actions, and Will traveled to Rafah with Rachel, and was present when she died. In fact, if you want to know about their planning process, and the activities they intended to engage in (as well as a great deal of what they actually did when they were there), I'd be happy to go for a cup of coffee with you. I hosted several of their planning meetings in the basement of my home, and I've got a copy of the chapbook of stories that Will wrote during his time in Rafah (it's about 60 pages, small print).
There's plenty of opportunity to engage in direct dialoge with the ISM, right here in Olympia. No need to research online.
The Canaanite's Call
No Phil,
Submitted by JT on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 1:11pm.no burden here my friend. I'm thinking that Rachel said it, because if she hadn't there would be available proof out there. If it was taken out of context, that should be able to be provided and then the issue would be closed.
If ISM is all that when it comes to being a peaceful group, where is the statement of disgust against the launching of missles from Gaza killing innocent civilians? I have looked on-line for that statement and haven't found it. If it is on the net somewhere, could you link to it please?
As for coffee or a beer, I would definitely sit down with you and discuss this issue and others.
As for talking with ISM members here, perhaps, but rather than talking with ISM only, its too bad there isn't a local voice that has experiance with both peaceful pro-Israel groups and peaceful pro-Palestine groups.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Appreciate your investment in time
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 12:30pm.My last word(s).
One cannot prove that Rachel Corrie did not say those words anymore than I can prove that George Bush did not say "I am the Walrus." In more graphic terms, a little invisible unicorn lives in my butt because there is no proof that a little invisible unicorn does not live in my butt. In less graphic terms...
One more mystery solved
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 12:35pm.now you all know the secret location of Candy Mountain...
End the war
Submitted by security_six on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 12:51pm.Arabs have been killing each other for thousands of years over tribal and religous differences. The best we can do is force a "stable" government for a few years. Their own culture will end up destroying it again. If Saddam had died in office we would be seeing the same terrorism and power vacuum I believe. The US attack only sped things up a bit.
Rather I should say, "end the occupation" of Iraq. If a legitimate war on Al Quada can be fought it should. I'm not sure what is happening now is the best way to fight organized terrorism. Unfortunately history tends to show that the terrorists often win. Or as I read somewhere "the barbarians always win in the end"
One time long ago when this nation was young a bunch of pirates on the Barbary Coast demanded tribute from the US. Other nations, even England paid tribute rather than fight the pirates. For a while the US paid tribute as well. Then when Jefferson became president he decided enough was enough. Two wars were fought. This arguably was the first War on Terrorism fought in this country, and should serve as a model. Come with force, destroy the enemy and leave. Repeat as needed. The problem now is attempting to install democratic governments in our wake. Screw that. If a country's people can't select a government to their liking forget it. We are not over there to install new governments, we are (supposedly) over there to fight terrorists. Find 'em, root 'em out and leave.
"It's okay to be armed"
security_six's social contract
I agree!
Submitted by JT on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 1:14pm.S6 said "If a country's people can't select a government to their liking forget it. We are not over there to install new governments, we are (supposedly) over there to fight terrorists. Find 'em, root 'em out and leave".
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
I should add
Submitted by security_six on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 1:17pm.And use EVERY legitimate tool of force at our disposal. Nukes if they are the only and best option. Personally though I think nukes would be a tool of LAST resort.
"It's okay to be armed"
security_six's social contract
Nukes? Cmon
Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 4:52pm.Actually I was going to bring up the use of Nukes
Submitted by JT on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 1:27pm.I agree with nukes being the last choice, and tactical obviously before strategic. But nukes shouldn't be completely off the table.
Russia was set to use tactical nukes against some terror camps in Chechnya after the Beslan incident, but chose not to due to their concern over international outcry, mostly from the USA.
Tactical nukes would work very well in the mountainous region of Pakistan.
I would add, keep the politicians out of the war and let the generals run things. This battle in Iraq would likely have been over by now if we had fought it like a war is to be fought.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Tactical nukes and terrorist sympathizers
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 1:29pm.I love the rhetoric lessons I get from Olyblog
Okay...I lied
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 01/24/2008 - 1:30pm."...Rachel said it, because if she hadn't there would be available proof out t