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Evergreen Roundup

Submitted by Rick on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 7:18pm.

tesc

There's been quite a bit of discussion today on OlyBlog about the events of last night. Most of the posts have been helpful and contributed to our understanding of what happened. You can check out those threads:

You can use this thread to add more observations or context to our collective knowledge about what happened. The more information we have, the better we'll understand the situation.

Rick's blog
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You teach there

Submitted by security_six on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 8:25pm.

I'm particularly interested in your viewpoint. Where do you think the police cruiser should have been parked, and do you think more cops should have been present? If you have addressed this and I missed it, sorry. A lot of stuff to read through.

The story so far: In the beginning, the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people mad and been widely regarded as a bad idea. -The Restaurant at the end of the Universe

I walked past there...

Submitted by Rick on Fri, 02/15/2008 - 9:05pm.

...at about 9:30 pm after my class. Looked like a very non-evergreen crowd to me.

The sense I have is that the initial officer started a train of events that ended badly, but could have been avoided if she had had better judgment about what she was getting into. Not being a cop, I can only guess, but it seems like one would acquire through experience a spidey-sense about how to deal with a crowd -- not putting your assets in the only exit path, not arresting without back up, and not when it wasn't absolutely necessary. I imagine that there will be a lot of analysis going on behind closed doors at TESC HQ in the days to come.

> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract

The Seattle Times' link to

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Sat, 02/16/2008 - 6:57am.

The Seattle Times' link to the story is currently the most read article and 4th most e-mailed.

Accountability

Submitted by grandma on Sat, 02/16/2008 - 7:14am.

What ever happened to personal accountability? To point the finger at the responding officer seems to shirk personal accountability.

Okay

Submitted by Guglielmo on Sat, 02/16/2008 - 7:59am.

All them people shouldn't have rioted. What page of the police manual should we put that in? Pardon my snark, but the idea here is to learn from these experiences so we can minimize the possibility of violence in the future. And I don't think posting "Be Accountable" signs is going to do the trick. \

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes

but the idea here is to

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Sat, 02/16/2008 - 9:08am.

but the idea here is to learn from these experiences so we can minimize the possibility of violence in the future.

Unfortunately, there's no real middle ground in this scenario. You either do nothing or show up in force.

The taxpaying public doesn't like to admit the former is even on the table and the latter results in a million city council meetings.

There are two kinds of people in the world

Submitted by Mike on Sat, 02/16/2008 - 9:24am.

People who think there are two kinds of people, and people who don't.

Similarly, there may be folks who think that there were only two options of police response to situations, and people who don't.

I understand that it is easier to suggest how things should work if there are are only two options in most circumstances, but I fall in the second category of people. I think there is a range of responses to almost any situation and that the brilliant responses may not be the most obvious ones.

All or nothing. I don't think so

Submitted by Guglielmo on Sat, 02/16/2008 - 10:37am.

A few more officers on site...more effective event security...better security at the door...where you park the squad car...better tactical awareness about the consequences of detaining someone. Few if any public meetings necessary.

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes

I was speaking strictly from

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Sat, 02/16/2008 - 11:28am.

I was speaking strictly from the vantage point of law enforcement, not event security.

better tactical awareness about the consequences of detaining someone.

This is why it's viewed as "All or Nothing." You can't just make an arrest or even detain for questioning in a situation where there's a large number of people unless you have a ton of officers with you.

And when you do have to move into a crowd to get someone, you're not asking people to politely move aside.

Every decision made and every course of action determined is done with your safety and ability to maintain control of the situation at the forefront. Everything else is secondary.

I don't know

Submitted by Guglielmo on Sat, 02/16/2008 - 11:48am.

I've seen police detain people in rowdy crowds without having a "ton" of officers present. I think there is some wiggle room between one officer and a ton of cops. And if the law enforcement vantage point doesn't include event security, that would be the first thing that needs to change.

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes

Mercy!

Submitted by OlyDowntowner on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 10:41am.

Grandma, do you really think there was some golden age of personal accountability which has ended in the modern era? Isn't personal accountability something that's always been sorely lacking in much human intercourse? I bet there were people grumbling about the Vikings' lack of personal accountability after they rioted and pillaged and pissed in the village well. I bet your own granny was shaking her head in despair and fussing about the irresponsible flappers swallowing goldfish and drinking moonshine when you were a college student. There's nothing new under the sun.

There are already enough

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 6:43am.

There are already enough Evergreen threads, so I'm just adding this article into this one.

The Olympian: Witness speaks about concert arrest, riot

Carolyn Hauser, self described friend of the individual detained at the Dead Prez concert:

Hauser, 21, said her friend, a young black man, was taken away by a female Evergreen police officer during the show because a young female concertgoer pointed him out to the officer as the person who had struck her during a fight that happened about an hour and a half earlier.

It seems that the more information that comes out, the worse it gets for those who attended the concert.

Dead Prez's management group on the detention:

Beibin also faulted the Evergreen officer for targeting a black man. "The inappropriate response by the campus security to randomly arrest a black kid, just because there were some people causing trouble, sends a very bad message," Beibin said.

So - without having all of the information - a large contingent of the crowd decided they were going to ensure an injustice wasn't taking place. Through the court system, you say? Not a chance.

the Evergreen officer acted professionally and appropriately when she was surrounded by close to 70 people who were telling her she had the wrong suspect and even accused her of racial profiling.

Right now 70 is the low and 200 is the high (although I may have read 400 somewhere else, I'm guessing the number was somewhere in the middle of the 70 and 200 estimates). This - by all accounts - hostile crowd was surrounding one individual who was well within her scope of duty and powers granted to her by the State of Washington to detain an individual for questioning on the suspicion that an assault was committed.

I can only assume that heavy-handed responses are going to be the norm in the near future. The taxpaying public isn't going to have much sympathy, regardless of what took place at the Port of Olympia. The Average Joe is going to say, "Look at what happened when there weren't enough police officers out there. Now I know why they do XYZ to control a crowd and gain compliance. If they didn't, the crowd would just run amok!"

And you have nobody to blame but yourselves.

You should point out that

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 8:57am.

You should point out that the final quote concerning the officer acting professionally was made by none other than Carolyn Hauser herself

“I said it in Hebrew—I said it in Dutch—I said it in German and Greek: But I wholly forgot (and it vexes me much) That English is what you speak!”
The Hunting of the Snark

"yourselves?"

Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 10:00am.

Who, exactly, are you talking to?

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes

I would assume the

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 10:10am.

I would assume the anti-authoritarian crowd who did this, and anyone else who may have encouraged or condoned the actions.

“I said it in Hebrew—I said it in Dutch—I said it in German and Greek: But I wholly forgot (and it vexes me much) That English is what you speak!”
The Hunting of the Snark

Yeah, pretty vague. I thought so.

Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 10:23am.

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes

Oh come on! While it doesn't

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 10:25am.

Oh come on! While it doesn't identify any one person or organization it's hardly "vague", especially the part about "the people who did this"

“I said it in Hebrew—I said it in Dutch—I said it in German and Greek: But I wholly forgot (and it vexes me much) That English is what you speak!”
The Hunting of the Snark

What people "Did this?"

Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 10:36am.

And until we know the facts, perhaps people should keep a lid on the assumptions and labels.

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes

WTF? Did a gust of wind flip

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 10:39am.

WTF? Did a gust of wind flip the car over and bust the windows? Did the hand of God spray the paint? Somebody did this. Student or Outsider, Black or White, I don't care who - somebody did it and that's the people being referred to.

Don't look for something underlying in that comment, it's not there. I'm not making assumptions (other than youth) on the demographics of those responsible.

“I said it in Hebrew—I said it in Dutch—I said it in German and Greek: But I wholly forgot (and it vexes me much) That English is what you speak!”
The Hunting of the Snark

I think the term you used was "the anti-authoritarian crowd "

Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 11:12am.

And the "yourselves" from the earlier post imply a discrete group of people. The insinuation is pretty darn clear to me (read, port protesters, anarchists, radical professors. etc.). Let's agree that "some concert goers at Evergreen did this" and leave it at that for now shall we. The facts are too slim to cahracterize folks.

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes

assumptions...

Submitted by chad360 on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 10:29am.

...I guess you can assume that if you want to, but...

...on another thread your assumption that folks expected race to get them off/excuse actions was a little disturbing to me...

One of the loudest points

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 10:42am.

One of the loudest points made so far was that the cop targetted him for being African-American. Chanting "let him go" implies that the crowd believes this individual exempt from the law. Others on this blog are all too happy to point out how hard it is for African-Americans and how The System doesn't work for them. Based on that my assumption isn't off at all.

“I said it in Hebrew—I said it in Dutch—I said it in German and Greek: But I wholly forgot (and it vexes me much) That English is what you speak!”
The Hunting of the Snark

Actually...

Submitted by Rick on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 10:59am.

...it seems that they just thought he was being arrested unfairly.

Read about it.

> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract

That I can buy and accept,

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 11:09am.

That I can buy and accept, even if I don't fully agree. However, there has been grumblings that he was targetted. I apologise for not remembering if it was here or "that other website" but the officer was accused of targetting an African-American for smoking in an unauthorized spot a few weeks ago.

“I said it in Hebrew—I said it in Dutch—I said it in German and Greek: But I wholly forgot (and it vexes me much) That English is what you speak!”
The Hunting of the Snark

I know Carolyn

Submitted by security_six on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 3:00pm.

And encouraged her to take her story to The Olympian or Olyblog, glad it got out.

"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown

Please read...

Submitted by Rick on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 10:06am.

...the eyewitness accounts here.

> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract

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