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Submitted by Mike on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 10:02pm.

This is where the global warming discussion can get really exciting and positive.  I don't think it is gloom and doom at all. 

For the sake of this thread, let's just look at two of the suggested causes for global warming:  

  • Solar Irradiance
  • Greenhouse gas buildup

I have seen an amazing technological solution to the solar irradiance contribution to global warming: 

Giant umbrella could curb global warming

As the reality of global warming sinks in, scientists have begun scrambling to find solutions to the problem. Governments and organizations are calling for conventional strategies such as energy conservation and non-carbon energy sources such as wind and nuclear power. But some scientists are turning to more ambitious alternatives.

Roger Angel, an astronomer and optics expert at the University of Arizona, recently proposed a plan for a high-tech umbrella to block sunlight before it reaches our planet. He suggests this could potentially cut incoming sunlight by 1.8 percent.

The total system would cost approximately $5 trillion and would last around 50 years.

This is pretty amazing and if we are really going to get cooked by the sun, I guess 5 trillion for umbrellas makes sense. And I think these umbrellas might work to reduce the greenhouse effect that is warming the planet even if greenhouse gases continue to rise.  

 

But here is the solution that has the most appeal and makes the most sense to me.

We, the USA, accept the science that indicates that most global warming is caused by burning of fossil fuels.  We go on a really major research, development, and deployment of clean energy generation that makes the US energy independent in ten years.  We don't have to import so much oil, we are not at the mercy of folks who don't like us and happen to be living directly above the planet's oil reserves, and we create lots of jobs for folks designing, manufacturing, installing, maintaining a clean energy grid for this country.  

I have trouble figuring out how anyone could be against an energy policy that makes us energy independent, creates jobs, doesn't foul the environment, but we can't seem to get to that discussion because we are constantly arguing all over the place about whether global warming is real, or is sunspot causes, or relates to the magnetic poles.  A whole lot of diversion and argument that seems to prevent discussion of a sensible national energy policy.  

It appears that the oil industry is committed to squeezing the last dollar of profit out of fossil fuels even if it kills us all, but it is hard for me to figure out why so many "independent, self-reliant" types fall all over themselves to support the oil industry and an energy policy that puts us at the mercy of oil reserves on the far side of the planet.  

That really is the light at the end of the tunnel for me.  A day when even patriotic, gun-toting Americans decide that a policy of national energy independence is the right way to go.  I think that could happen.

Is that gloom and doom?  Is that the sky falling?  An energy policy that lets us thumb our noses at Iran or Iraq or Venezuela or Russia if we want to?  I think we could be more gracious about it than that, but I would rather see us thumb our noses at the OPEC countries instead of invading them in resource wars.  

And hey, if this national energy policy of independence also happens to reduce global warming, I can live with that.  How about you? 

 

»

plant more trees

how many tress could you plant for 5 trillion dollars?
»

a bunch

I don't have a problem with planting trees, but I am not convinced that planting trees will address global warming because trees are seen as a commodity instead of infrastructure.  Once the trees are well established there will be pressure to cut them for timber. 

Also, there is the land use issue - as fast as we may be able to plant trees, other human beings may be cutting them down on other parts of the planet.  

Do you have any links to information/plans/proposals for tree planting as a solution? 

»

Just to keep up with deforestation you need the following:

Billions of Trees Must Be Planted to Restore Lost Forests
To make up for the loss of trees over the past decade, 130 million hectares (or 1.3 million square kilometers), an area as large as Peru, would have to be reforested. Accomplishing that would mean planting about 14 billion trees every year for 10 years in a row, the equivalent of every person on Earth planting and caring for at least two seedlings annually.

This 14 billion trees for ten years would make up for tree loss over the past decade. That sounds like a holding action to me, I did not find projections as to how many trees we might need to plant to create a carbon sequestration plan that would address global warming. Plus, this approach, admirable as it is, does nothing to reduce accumulation of greenhouse gases that are largely related to tailpipes and smokestacks.

I still think we have to start with tailpipes and smokestacks to address the warming and I think it can be an economic renaissance for the US.

Plant trees? Yes, certainly.

"A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in." -- Greek proverb

But I believe if we want to reduce global warming, which is happening and is bad from an anthropocentric pov, then we have to look at the source of the problem - tailpipes and smokestacks - the burning of fossil fuels. Time to evolve.

»

More on trees

Tree planting as solution to global warming is complicated.  Here is an interesting article  courtesy Discovery:

April 10, 2007 — Planting new trees in snow-covered northern regions may actually contribute to global warming as they have the counter-effect of tropical forests, according to a study out Monday.

While rainforests help cool the planet by absorbing carbon dioxide and producing clouds that reflect sunlight, the dark canopy of Canadian, Scandinavian and Siberian forests catches sunrays that would be reflected back to space by the snow, the study said.

The study, published Monday in the online edition of the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, found that reforestation projects in the tropics would help mitigate global warming, but such projects would be "counterproductive" in high latitudes.

In mid-latitude locations like the United States and most of Europe, more trees would only create marginal benefits for climate change, the researchers said.

"Our study shows that only tropical rainforests are strongly beneficial in helping slow down global warming," Govindasamy Bala, who led the research, said in a statement.

"It is a win-win situation in the tropics because trees in the tropics, in addition to absorbing carbon dioxide, promote convective clouds that help to cool the planet," he said.

"In other locations, the warming from the albedo effect (sunlight absorption) either cancels or exceeds the net cooling from the other two effects," said Bala, an atmospheric scientist at the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory.

Researchers used a three-dimensional computer simulation to study the effects of large-scale deforestation and look at the positive and negative effects of tree cover at different latitudes.

"When it comes to rehabilitating forests to fight global warming, carbon dioxide might be only half of the story; we also have to account for whether they help to reflect sunlight by producing clouds, or help to absorb it by shading snowy tundra," said study co-author Ken Caldeira.

By 2100, forests in temperate and northern countries will make some places 10 degrees Farhenheit warmer that if the trees had not been there, the study said.

However, the authors did not endorse slashing down boreal forests as a measure against global warming.

"Preservation of ecosystems is a primary goal of preventing global warming, and the destruction of ecosystems to prevent global warming would be a counterproductive and perverse strategy," said Caldeira.

"In planning responses to global challenges, it is important to pursue broad goals and avoid narrow criteria that may lead to environmentally harmful consequences," said Caldeira, of the Carnegie Institution.

Bala added: "Forests provide natural habitat to plants and animals, preserve the biodiversity, produce economically valuable timber and firewood, protect watersheds and indirectly prevent ocean acidification."

Researchers from Stanford University in California and Universite Montpellier II in France contribute to the study.

So, plant trees?  I say yes, definitely, for many reasons.  Can we tree-plant our way out of a global-warming dilemma?  I think no. We have to go to the root of the problem which is energy production related to burning fossil fuels that creates the greenhouse gases that are driving global warming.  

»

sea life

When I studies climate change at TESC, most data pointed to the health of the sea.

In the oceans, more C is sequestered thru life processes of microorganisms than in plant life on land (wish I could track some of this down for the 'thread here).

»

Has anyone heard about spreading Iron over the arctic?

http://www.cem.msu.edu/~cem181h/projects/96/iron/cem.html

  Iron is a limiting nutrient for the plankton, the growth of plankton cannot increase unless the amount of iron in the water increases. By introducing extra iron into the environment, plankton growth is accelerated. The increase in plankton alows for more carbon dioxide to be removed from the atmosphere.

Probably won't cost 5 Trillion dollars 

»

There is a problem with Carbon in the Sea

as the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere rises, the carbon sequestration in the sea is increasing and that is changing the ph of the ocean.  With slightly more acidic oceans, we begin to get a problem where the shells of ocean life are endangered.  Here is a story from July 2006 about that courtesy Mongabay.

Increasingly acidic oceans harm marine life mongabay.com
July 5, 2006

 

I think the long and short regarding the health of the oceans is the same story as regards the health of the continents as greenhouse gases continue to rise, the world becomes a little more precarious environment for many existing species.  I think that includes human beings.  

That does not have to be seen as gloom and doom story, the real story is that we can choose to address the accumulation of greenhouse gases through a comprehensive sustainable energy policy that creates jobs, reduces our dependence on oil from Saudi Arabia, and is good for the living things on the planet.

I have a dream about clean, sustainable energy infrastructure.  

»

"Benefits" of the giant space parasols aside

We need

to change

the way

we live.

»

I'm all for chaning how we live if

done voluntary, no forced "huge" changes!

“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will

»

Sorry, buy voluntary

Sorry, buy voluntary measures are not going to do it. Coal-buring power plants did not "volunteer" to reduce sulfer dioxide emmissions until the State capped them and gave them incentives to change. Not sure what "huge" changes you're afraid of. Maybe you can be more specific. What's wrong with a carbon tax for example, to encourage more efficient use of fossil fuels?
»

No taxes

make it lucrative to make "things" that are kinder to the environment, companies will do that. And if the price is reasonable, people will buy it. It's typical of progessives to want to tax. Progressives like the stick method of change, conservatives like the carrot means to change.

Most of the greenies don't like nuke power. They want power like wind and solar as our main source. My understanding is our power needs can not be met with wind and solar alone. So I think first the greenies need to choose, coal or nuke. “America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will

»

Carrot method?

You mean like the war on drugs? Please, what's an example of "making it lucrative" to be kinder to the environment.

And "greenies?" Could you give it a rest maybe once a week.

»

There is a town in the east

where a coal burning plant is located - the primary source of employment.  Although challenged by the fear of "loss of jobs", the people of the area got behind the upgrade need of the plant and demanded change.  Their answer?  "This is our town and the air we breathe"

The upgrade took place and no significant loss of jobs happened.  If I had more time, I'd google and find the name.   I think I saw it on 60 Minutes, or something similar.

»

i'd stop with the George Will Quote..

please...read a little more about him, supposedly a backstabbing journalist that was pro-Reagan/Bush and stole information from Jimmy Carter to give to Reagan.
»

Regardless what you think of George Will

or what you allege he has done, the quote is quite accurate.

“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will

»

We need to change the way we live

Amen, brother.
»

sun reflector sounds like mad scientist doomsday weapon

gives me the heeby jeebies
»

Almost everyone who has looked at the parasols in space

has come to that same conclusion.  The folks who developed the design are also saying it is a crazy idea, and should only be a last resort. 

I don't think much of it because it serves only purpose - reducing sunlight, it doesn't create energy or reduce accumulation of greenhouse gases that are going to be a problem for ocean life.

I think it is interesting technological solution, but misses the mark because the root problem, imho, is the burning of fuels that create greenhouse gases and I think the root solution is to work on clean, sustainable energy infrastructure instead of parasols in space.  

But, for any of you who think that the solar irradiance is the primary cause of global warming, the parasols in space should have appeal that will not accrue to a clean energy infrastructure.  

»

Pehaps these parasols

could also collect solar radiation and beam it to earth as microwave energy...or a death ray, depending on the regime.
»

What Gug and Mike are saying,

Makes me believe that liberalism does equal nanny fascism.

I think everybody needs to realize that it may take us forty years to socially adapt to a new lifestyle and that forcing laws on people or new taxes is just going to make people resistant to the kind of change they might already be interested in. If given the education and the opportunity, people will make the right decisions. We have to look at this from an economic as well as social standpoint. The government should provide incentives, but not to huge corporations, to individuals. Things like rewards for limiting waste and water and power usage. For example, cities could invest in solar panels, or windmills, or whatever, and offer them to the citizens to use at their homes at no cost, after all, everyone on the grid would benefit from each new household that shrinks their footprint.

image
»

Really?

"If given the education and the opportunity, people will make the right decisions." I don't think so. When even the best educated people enter a freeway, they do so with nearly total disregard for the impact they have on everyone else on the road. When I merge onto I-5 it is far from clear to me how much I am contributing to congestion that affects thousands of other people on the road. My personal decision does not include an estimate of the social costs of my actions. That is why we enforce things like carpool lanes, metered on-ramps, and tolls. That is far from nanny-statism. It is simply confronting issues of scarcity and congestion.

To a great degree this is a non-issue but a useful straw man. I don't think that banning plastic grocery bags or requiring deposits on plastic water bottles represent huge changes in lifestyle. So let's stop talking about these vague changes that no wants to adapt to and speak to the specifics. And let's drop the nanny trope while we're at it.  

»

well,

Wouldn't educating people be a better solution than forcing them to act a certain way?

It's dropped. I still think what you're talking about is a form of authoritarianism, and I disagree with it.

image
»

How do you educate someone to calculate

the social cost of entering a freeway. I don't know how to do that but I am willing to learn.

Edit: Also, I won't be forced into your false dichotomy. It's not education or enforcement. Both have a justifiable role in our complex, modern society.

»

Nannies?

I haven't been following that thread at all, so don't know what this means, but it doesn't seem engaged or generous. 

I haven't said a word about taxes or laws, so I don't know where that is coming from. 

I prefer the carrot to the stick.  I think we could choose to move tax incentives and subsidies that are currently directed to the oil industry to clean, sustainable energy infrastructure and we would see the changes begin almost immediately.  No laws that would cause any of us great discomfort, we wouldn't need carbon taxes, though I think carbon taxes with the proceeds funding clean energy infrastructure makes more sense than carbon trading which I think will turn out to be like a game of three card monte.  It will provide an economic game, but little real greenhouse gas reduction.  Just my opinion on that. 

»

One only need to examine the extraordinary success

of the Allowance Trading program for sulfur emissions to imagine the benefits that might accrue if we did the same with carbon. Remember when we used to talk about acid rain all the time? Well, we don't anymore and it's largely due to that program...a program that not only cut emissions, but did so by rewarding the most efficient power plants. Why do you think of it as a scam?
»

I expect the old executives and traders from Enron

to flock to carbon trading firms. 

Maybe it would work, maybe we would get this, courtesy TimeOnline from April 2007: 

EU’s carbon trading fails to cut emissions

The amount of greenhouse gas pumped into European skies rose by up to 30 million tonnes last year despite the EU’s pledge to lead the world in tackling climate change.

A much-heralded emissions trading scheme, which is being copied by California and is seen as the market solution to reducing harmful gases, failed to achieve the cuts in industrial pollution needed to hit Kyoto targets, figures from the European Commission showed.

 

»

I'm still waiting for your explanaiton about why it's a scam

And the fact that a poorly organized effort in the EU has failed to produce results does not mean we cannot duplicate the highly successful emmissions trading program that has reduced acid rain.
»

As I said, it's just my opinion

but with regard to the success curbing acid rain, it was not all trade, it also included epa cap on emissions tht required controls on smokestacks, mandated scrubbers, etc.  I am ok with the combination approach, I would be skeptical of an approach that was only market-driven.  I would expect an entirely market approach to global warming, carbon trading, etc, to simply create a new "stock market" without a strong commitment to profits for the traders and a weaker or non-existent commitment to reducing CO2 buildup in the atmosphere. It's not just trading, there needs to be a cap also.  So Congress could pass a clean air bill in 1990 that included a cap on the acid rain gases.  Do you think Congress could pass a clean air bill in 2008 that includes a cap on greenhouse gases?   I do not think it is likely.  I think if we get legislation on clean air related to CO2 we will get a market/trading approach without any cap.  And I don't think that trading alone will get the job done. That's just my opinion.  

from the epa site:

Congress created the Acid Rain Program in Title IV of the 1990 Clean Air Act Amendments. The overall goal of the program is to achieve significant environmental and public health benefits through reductions in emissions of sulfur dioxide (SO2) and nitrogen oxides (NOx), the primary causes of acid rain. To achieve this goal at the lowest cost to the public, the program employs both traditional and innovative, market-based approaches for controlling air pollution. Specifically, the program seeks to limit, or “cap,” SO2 emissions from power plants at 8.95 million tons annually starting in 2010, authorizes those plants to trade SO2 allowances, and reduces NOx emission rates. In addition, the program encourages energy efficiency and pollution prevention.

»

Oh man

That's how a trading program works. Of course you need to cap emmisions first. Otherwise the trading is meaningless. That's why it's called a "cap and trade" program.
»

ok, my bad.

I am ok with it as long as there is a cap and not just some shell game with taxes and tradeable credits for grandfathered right to produce greenhouse gases.  I am not convinced we could get a meaningful cap passed by Congress these days like was passed in the 1990 Clean Air Act. 

Watch closely if this starts to develop and see if there is a real cap or if there is just a promise of reduced greenhouse gases through an impressive looking format.  You know, the kind where you see the promise of reduction of greenhouse gases, right there on the table, then they turn all the promises over, scoot them all around on the table, but you can easily see that the promise is still there, it's just upside down now. 

I guess my skepticism about government regulation in these days when industry insiders head the agencies that are regulating their industries, I just get a little apprehensive that there could be less than strenuous environmental and safety regulation, you follow?

»

I follow

The best "friends" of regulatory agencies are often the industries they regulate. Constant vigilance is paramount.
»

Interesting talk regarding geoengineering

»

It is interesting stuff.

and essentially it's another parasol in the sky, but using dust clouds instead of high tech umbrella thingies.  Same problem as the umbrellas for me, might have unintended consequences.

I am inclined to think that the natural environment is kind of a good thing, so instead of pumping more stuff into the sky to counteract other stuff we are pumping into the sky, I think we ought to focus energy on reducing the first stuff we are pumping into the sky.  

Here's something from August 2007, National Geographic:

Kate Ravilious
for National Geographic News
August 17, 2007

A controversial theory proposes mimicking volcanoes to fight global warming. But throwing sulfur particles into the sky may do more harm than good, a new study says.

The temporary solution would pump particles of sulfur high into the atmosphere—simulating the effect of a massive volcano by blocking out some of the sun's rays. This intervention, advocates argue, would buy a little time to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

But as well as cooling the planet, the sulfur particles would reduce rainfall and cause serious global drought, a new study says.

"It is a Band-Aid fix that does not work," said study co-author Kevin Trenberth of the National Center for Atmospheric Research (NCAR) in Boulder, Colorado.

It's just one of several drastic measures proposed to combat global warming, now that most scientists are in agreement that carbon dioxide, primarily from burning fossil fuels, is changing Earth's climate.

»

I was a nanny in college...

...and in grad school, too, actually. I think nannies are good things. I'm not so sure what all the fuss is about. Doesn't everyone want a nanny?


> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
»

Nannies - maybe yes

liberal fascist nannies?  I don't know about that one.  New collectivist union or something?  I thought Rob's naming Gug and Mike as liberal fascist nannies or whatever seemed unresponsive to the thread which is about solutions to global warming.  But I am generally ok with getting lumped with Gug, so I guess the question becomes when is payday and do I get dental as a liberal fascist nanny?

 

»

No

Not until I'm in diapers again. I like my freedom.
»

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