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Submitted by Mike on Sun, 01/13/2008 - 8:09am.
Nobody came right out and said they don't think that GW is happening, so we are on to the second question to consider. I think it is worth noting that even as recently as a year or two ago, republican types were still inclined to argue that the warming was not even happening. I guess it's encouraging that we don't encounter that level of denial today. Saw a current article from the Washington Post - 2007 was again one of the warmest years ever since weather records have been kept. Last Year Among Hottest On Record, Say Scientists The Northern Hemisphere and the Arctic are warming faster than the rest of the planet, threatening the habitat of animls such as this ribbon seal. (Reuters) I don't want to jump ahead to a broader discussion because this is a really complicated subject and I think we may be able to make progress in our understanding if we focus on just one aspect at a time. So, for this post, I suggest we keep the discussion to whether global warming is good or bad. On that question, I am going with the position that global warming is bad, but I have reservations about that. Maybe in some large GAIA type of world view, the heating of the world is essentially neutral. Maybe changes in the planet's environment are really not that important to the meta-biological system that is the world, but from a species to species point of view, I think global warming is not good news for striped seals or for human beings. So why is global warming bad? Here are just a couple of reasons: 1. I don't think there is any question that the planet is currently in a Die-Off. Species are disappearing on the planet at a rate that should alarm anyone who understands the ecological principal that we exist in a web of life. I think that global warming and the resultant climate changes are a primary cause of the current die-off. 2.Global warming is causing changes in weather patterns that make the planet's weather less hospitable to human beings. The World Bank report is pretty convincing in this regard. The World Bank is not known for radical views, so I think the fact that this agency notes a four-fold increase in weather events of a certain (high) rate of destruction is particularly credible. Because I experience the world from an anthropocentric human view, I think global warming is bad. I think it will cause my children and grandchildren to have a more difficult life than I have experienced in some fundamental ways. "If a path to the better there be, it begins with a full look at the worst."-- Thomas Hardy So what say you? Do you think global warming is good or bad. Please bring facts, links, even science, along with your opinions and let's just keep the discussion to whether you think global warming is good or bad, and why you go one way or the other on that question.
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Looks like habitat loss is a bigger
Submitted by JT on Sun, 01/13/2008 - 4:20pm.cause to species damage than climate change. I can buy that. Us hunters and conservationists were saying that long before the global warming issue became in vogue.
Climate change, will it be bad? Don't know, time will tell. Time will tell, cuz it's happening and we can't or won't do much about it.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
The question is Global Warming, good or bad?
Submitted by Mike on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 5:24pm.So why did you link to
Submitted by JT on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 5:35pm.data that talk about species harm from habitat loss then?
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
because I think habitat loss is very much related to
Submitted by Mike on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 7:24pm.global warming. I believe that consumption, overpopulation, all of this stuff that I believe contributes to global warming also contributes to habitat loss or deforestation or carbon release - you can parse that destruction in a whole bunch of ways, but I believe that it is likely that global warming is very much related to the die-off and because I believe that human beings, being in the web of life, are endangered by any threat that starts tearing the web of life in a wholesale fashion.
This habitat loss and die-off is one of my anthropocentric reasons for coming to the position that global warming is bad. I am not trying to prove I am right about that, I am just laying it out as one of the reasons that I choose to think that global warming is bad. You follow?
If you think that habitat loss or species die-off has nothing to do with global warming, then it is likely that you would not cite habitat loss or die-off as a reason why you think gw is good or bad.
Evolution
Submitted by Rob Richards on Sun, 01/13/2008 - 4:44pm.That said, humans need to change their lives quite a bit as well, because we're causing the destruction of a lot of habitat. I'm not talking about the round about global warming sort of way either. For every one (1) pound of product we put on a store shelf, we create twenty-three (23) pounds of waste. Where do you think that waste goes? Goodbye ribbon seal.
I am not sure you answered the question:
Submitted by Mike on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 5:26pm.in your opinion, is global warming good or bad and why?
global warming is not man made
Submitted by eregular on Sun, 01/13/2008 - 6:01pm.Earth is currently experiencing rapid warming, which the vast majority of climate scientists says is due to humans pumping huge amounts of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.
Mars, too, appears to be enjoying more mild and balmy temperatures.
In 2005 data from NASA's Mars Global Surveyor and Odyssey missions revealed that the carbon dioxide "ice caps" near Mars's south pole had been diminishing for three summers in a row. "
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html
Stop right there
Submitted by Guglielmo on Sun, 01/13/2008 - 6:27pm.and our greenhouse gases are warming mars
Submitted by eregular on Sun, 01/13/2008 - 8:29pm.That's a rather foolish statement
Submitted by Guglielmo on Sun, 01/13/2008 - 9:36pm.The debate is about how much
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Sun, 01/13/2008 - 9:27pm.I agree with this statement completely.
The question is Global Warming, good or bad?
Submitted by Mike on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 7:30am.Please Gug, no hijacks
Submitted by Mike on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 5:32pm."one scientist's controversial theory"
Submitted by Rob Richards on Sun, 01/13/2008 - 8:53pm.More than one Rob,
Submitted by JT on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 8:35am.but many don't have the balls to say it. Besides, if Mars, Triton, Pluto, and others are experiencing global warming too, who cares if one scientist says it or 400 say it. If it's happening, it's happening.
I think Gug is correct, the question is how much co2 is contributing to global warming. We really don't know. And then the second question is, how much are humans exacerbating the problem.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Please, save that for the discussion of causes.
Submitted by Mike on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 7:27pm.Please, this thread is only about is it good or bad
Submitted by Mike on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 5:21pm.Excellerated, man-caused global warming
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 5:30pm.Why?
Submitted by Mike on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 5:37pm.Maybe it's good, maybe it's bad. Who cares?
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 6:06pm.I agree with the orthodox anarchist completely!!!
Submitted by JT on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 6:10pm.sorry Rob, I had too!!! :) “America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
I refer to myself as
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 6:16pm.Please, Rob, if you want to start a thread about consumption
Submitted by Mike on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 7:02pm.go ahead. If you don't want to talk or think about global warming, don't. Maybe it's good, maybe it's bad, who cares? appears to be your position.
I don't think much of that, but you are entitled to be apathetic if you choose. Please don't move the thread towards consumption unless it has bearing on why you think global warming is good or bad, ok?
I don't consider natural cycles to be good or bad
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 6:09pm.Agree entirely
Submitted by Mike on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 7:13pm.that it becomes important/essential to define a point of view to come up with an opinion about whether global warming is good or bad.
I think I can certainly make the argument that human beings as an indigenous species on the planet are engaging in what may be their natural cycle and are creating global warming. In that sense even human-caused global warming is a natural cycle. Do you follow?
For me, the good and bad come directly from consequences on the sentient beings on the planet. I think global warming is causing more violent weather, will cause more flooding, more droughts, stronger hurricances, more tornadoes, higher sea levels, - the list goes on and on, and the impact of these changes on the living things on the planet is going to be profound. Niches for biological types will disappear and appear, but in the final analysis, as a human being, with grandchildren, I see global warming as a slow motion disaster that creates danger to the little children on the planet. The least among us, in terms of ability to survive in a more challenging and dangerous environment, are likely to be victimized. I think that's an species-centric view, but when it comes to thinking about good and bad, I tend to think of good or bad for whom.
Finally, I am not asking you to speak from the pov of humanity, I am asking you to consider global warming and choose the pov that you feel you have to choose and then make a values call about global warming.
Is it good or bad and why? Not whether it is natural, or unnatural, or caused by man, or caused by sunspots, simply is it good or bad and why?
things are more nuanced than good or bad.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 9:00pm.When you said "Who Cares?"
Submitted by Mike on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 7:26am.who cares? that struck me as apathetic.
As to where I am going, I simply want to break this complex discussion into component parts to see where there is agreement. The next questions that I can see posing include: what are the causes, what solutions exist for the apparent causes, how would these solutions impact our lives? But I want to take this one step at a time.
As I said to Gug elsewhere on this thread, yes, good and bad are relative terms, they depend on point of view and I think it's not possible to come to a good or bad position without deciding what your point of view is with regard to global warming.
I have seen you with your son and I think you are a caring parent. Based on that impression, I would expect that you would choose the point of view of a parent who cares about the state of the world that faces his child and that you would need to move to the position that global warming is bad because the world is going to be a much tougher place for your child than it would be if global warming was not occurring, but I don't want to insert these words right in to the bubble above your head, I am asking you and any others who want to read this thread to focus on that issue. Choose your point of view and come out on whether global warming is good or bad, and explain why.
thank you.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 9:44am.two sides of the same coin
Submitted by Mike on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 12:52pm.The true issue is the warming of the planet. All the scientific measurements are indicating that global temperature is rising. The climate models suggest that warming of the environment is closely related, probably causes a lot of what is called climate change, but specifically, I am talking about the warming of the planet as reported in this 2006 article in the WAPO:
Climate Experts Worry as 2006 Is Hottest Year on Record in U.S.
Wednesday, January 10, 2007; Page A01
Last year was the warmest in the continental United States in the past 112 years -- capping a nine-year warming streak "unprecedented in the historical record" that was driven in part by the burning of fossil fuels, the government reported yesterday.
That's from 2006 records reported January 2007. The WAPO article above again indicates that 2007 is again in the list of warmest years ever recorded. So, global warming, good or bad and why?
Global Warming is bad for the stauts quo.
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 8:56am.Bad
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 6:26pm.I'll keep it in a "yes or no" form for you Mike, I feel bad after reading through the whole therad.
Thank you.
Submitted by Mike on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 6:55pm.