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Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 9:43am.
All this talk about contracts and civility and enforcement (yes, enforcement, even from Rob R.) has just got me wondering. We sure spend a lot of energy on mitigating negative influences don't we? Not just here, but anywhere that doesn't have a gate. It reminds me of my favorate quotation, which I've probably posted here before. But I'll do it again. It's from Italo Calvino's Invisible Cities:
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This is all well and good...
Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 11:08am.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
No. It's not clear...
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 11:14am....because it hasn't happened yet -- unless you have some way to see into the future.
You've also misquoted Rob (again). He said that he DID NOT WANT to have the sole authority BECAUSE he felt biased toward several individuals.
If you're going to use someone else's words, get it right.
And, any time you have a positive suggestion, please feel free. We're all ears.
> Say something interesting or say nothing at all. <
Rick,
Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 11:47am.I quoted Gug's post regarding Rob, and since I copy and pasted the quote, I am fairly certain I have it exactly right. I did not see Rob state that he felt he was too biased against 'certain individuals' to be an enforcer of speech code here. If he truly believes this of him self why is he a docent? Is it because he has been here a long time? If so, how long is long enough to be a docent? I would like to know.
Considering that I am not some sort of fortune teller, I can not see into the future, any farther than to know that any thing I say will make you irritable. My point, since you choose to pretend that you didn't see it (giving you credit for being able to understand what I wrote), is that your 'social contract' is just a speech code that will of course be used as an instrument to not have to hear opinions you don't like.
Lastly, I have positive suggestions all the time. You just don't like them. My suggestion for your speech code is this; don't do it. It is more trouble than it is worth and will only diminish people from sharing. Oh, and one other thing, be a little more thick skinned when it comes to others opinions and facts. It will get you a lot farther.
C.
<p><strong><span><span> One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in. </span></span></strong></p><p>Thomas Sowell </p>
I notice that basic blogging ethics and intellectual honesty
Submitted by Mike on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 12:03pm.and enforcement of any social contract are making certain folks uneasy.
Rhetoric is easy, open honest communication is a little harder.
Swift-boating folks is harder if blogging ethics and honesty are a community standard.
Public apologies may be in order when a regular misquotes another regular. That seems like a basic tool of civil discourse.
Just edited this to take into account Tschida's point that he quoted G, not Rob R. Good point, but the fear about Rob as enforcer seems a little unreasonable given Rob's statements on being the enforcer.
I can't find Rob's quote
Submitted by emmettoconnell on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 12:09pm.That would be because...
Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 12:40pm.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
I meant the original quote
Submitted by emmettoconnell on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 12:41pm.I don't know where the link is/was because I didn't read it.
Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 12:55pm.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
mmhmmm
Submitted by enpen on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 1:40pm.To quote a quote I quote your quote quoting quotes concerning captive quotes.
This was not meant to be a thread about
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 11:57am.enforcing social contracts or to discuss paranoid fantasies about censorship. Calvino's quotation is about an alternative. We seem to waste a lot of time and energy trying to convince a few negative people that what we object to is their negativity, not their politics. All that energy could be better used cultivating and encouraging the good things we find here on Olyblog. It's just a shame.
This is not at all a criticism of the recent attempt to fashion a social contract. I appreciate that effort.
I could barely agree more
Submitted by enpen on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 12:35pm.We seem to waste a lot of time and energy trying to convince a few negative people that what we object to is their negativity, not their politics. All that energy could be better used cultivating and encouraging the good things we find here on Olyblog.
Irrespective of time's reality, if I were to graph my existence then a visible correlation would exist between my spending time in OlyBlog comments and my creating content for OlyBlog. This is not to say that OlyBlog should be above reproach, in fact I'm a firm believer in stress testing and it remains to be seen how valuable a resource this can be to Olympia.
I'll just assume that everyone here has a life outside of OlyBlog and that coming here is a choice. To what end that choice?
Right on, G
Submitted by jlw on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 2:01pm.Peace became pizza. -- Guglielmo
Way to take your depression over Olyblog lately and turn it into
Submitted by Debmonstrative on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 7:02pm.This was not an attempt to change the course of the conversation
Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 11:50am.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
I like the Calvino quote.
Submitted by Mike on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 12:07pm.My comment about Rob was
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 12:11pm.I understand what you are saying...
Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 12:46pm.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Free speech is enshrined in law
Submitted by Mike on Wed, 12/05/2007 - 6:33am.what is true in this instance is that you think the social contract is a speech code. There is a communication trap here that is in common use and contributes to the rancor in the community.
I don't think that is factual or true (factual and true, having some overlap, but not necessarily the same thing).
The dialogue breaks down in these situations because Tschida (example for this case, not just Tschida generally) believes the social contract is a speech code so firmly that it does not occur to frame the opinion correctly. Idealogues of all stripe are in the habit of just stating their opinion over and over again as fact and the dialogue breaks down quickly.
The natural response to "The 'social contract' thing is a speech code." is "no, it isn't." then, we get "yes, it is." and this continues ad nauseam.
The natural response to "I believe the 'social contract' thing is a speech code." might be "why do you believe that?" "What essential right to speak do you think you will lose through the social contract." I have some hope for intelligent dialogue with this process.
Bottom line: we should be careful in our "speech" here and type out the extra words necessary to support a dialogue. We should also reflect as we type and recognize when we are stating something as fact when it is truly personal belief. If we can recognize that situation, we can amend our statement to add the true and honest "I believe" clause that opens the door to dialogue.
The inferno exists and we are in it when we are not self-aware enough to discriminate the difference between our strongly-held beliefs and fact.
OK....I've watched this go on for quite awhile....
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 12:25pm.I finally need to ask the question:
Why keep going back to a place where you think people are "against" you?
Something I learned in my wrestling match with The Olympian is that I'm not going to win on their turf. They made it quite clear that they ran the show.
Recently, I sent a donation to Rick McKinnon, as a vote of confidence that I'm satisfied with the way that Olyblog is being run and the acknowledgement that he "runs the show" (if he chooses). Rick and I will readily admit that we've had our differences - publically, in fact. He said so much as he somewhat recommended that the docents "boot" me, at one point. Yet, that didn't happen.
What did happen? Either we agreed to disagree or one of us changed or both of us changed. Regardless, today, I'm on Olyblog, Rick sent me a nice thank you email for my donation and all is....well........WELL. Now that could change tomorrow, but that's the roll of the dice that I take.
I have my own blog and have been rather inactive on it of late. I enjoy Olyblog and for that reason I seek to find the middle ground to avoid eventual "boots" or "dog house" episodes. You know what? It hasn't hurt me one bit. In fact, I think I've grown in some ways by learning that I'm not the only fish in the sea.
Why worry about who is making what decisions? If I was banned from Olyblog tomorrow for a perceived violation, I have a choice to move on, or discuss a solution to the problem.
Meanwhile, it would be rather intellectually dishonest if I were to send Rick a donation and then say that he has no ownership rights to Olyblog.
I like Gug's earlier (a few days ago) rule about acting like you are a guest in someone's home.
All of you are equally wrong about me.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 12:48pm.Tschida, I welcome you as person to this blog. When you consistently use argument styles that shut other people down, or when you result to ad hominem attacks, that's when I don't want you. I'm talking about behavior not you as person or your political views. You're the kid in the sandbox that keeps throwing sand in other kids' eyes and then can't understand when they don't want to play with him anymore.
Rick, I pretty much addressed this with my comments to Tschida, but I want to restate what I meant. I'm not worried about my bias getting in the way when it comes to certain people, I could care less. I'm invested in making this blog a safe place, and making this blog a new source for local residents. The biggest worry in my head was based on perceptions people would have of attempted enforcement.
Why is it that conservatives always seem to be the ones being called out for inappropriate behavior here? Well, they are in the minority and perhaps feel like they have to be scrappy to survive. It's our job as docents, in my opinion, to make everyone comfortable here to the point that they can express their beliefs without worry. That goes both ways. If Tschida says something and twenty people jump on him and tell him he's wrong and make him feel unwelcome and he reacts to it, is it his fault? Should would blame him? Or is there something bigger going on that allows that environment? If we allow conservative voices to be ganged up on, we're breeding reactionary discourse. When facilitating meetings, I often ask people not to restate their opinions, and I ask that people don't repeat what others have said, but to always be adding something to the discussion. If a person disagrees they should explain what specifically they disagree on without paying attention to who they're disagreeing with.
I could keep going but am pressed for time right now.
Rob,
Submitted by Tschida on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 1:05pm.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Perhaps you don't partake in
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 5:56pm.And just to clarify, I welcome you here when you're here to listen, share, learn and communicate.
Alas
Submitted by Myrtle McFertile on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 1:00pm.nice questions
Submitted by enpen on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 1:14pm.For "apprehension" I was going with #3.
Here's a case in point
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 2:03pm.Does either way really help you escape suffering?
Submitted by Myrtle McFertile on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 2:08pm.I'm not smart enough to explain that
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 2:30pm.You're such an optimist!
Submitted by Myrtle McFertile on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 2:54pm.Now if you could learn to enjoy that, life would be sweet.
Ah ha! "Fruitless!?"
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 5:14pm.That was a quick trip...
Submitted by Myrtle McFertile on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 6:08pm.I think G may be tilting at
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 6:09pm.If so, there is proof that he's proceeding in alphabetical order
Submitted by Debmonstrative on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 7:20pm.(that's why I chose that reference)
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 7:52pm.Oh sure, you did...
Submitted by Debmonstrative on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 11:12pm.Although I guess I should admit that maybe
Submitted by Debmonstrative on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 11:15pm.Moving on....
Submitted by Myrtle McFertile on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 11:45pm.How far we have strayed from the inferno!
Does this sound familiar?
Believe it or not, this was written before Olyblog existed!
More alphabetical-orderliness!
Submitted by Debmonstrative on Wed, 12/05/2007 - 1:37pm.I'm familiar with it because
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 11:47pm.I love Cervantes and am waiting patiently as we move
Submitted by Mike on Wed, 12/05/2007 - 6:38am.Touche
Submitted by Debmonstrative on Wed, 12/05/2007 - 1:54pm.The quote encapsulates a certain zen quality...
Submitted by Rick on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 9:58pm....that I like. And I am very aware of the vast amount of time spent counteracting the negative. Yet, I have the strong feeling that simply making space will not be healthy in the end. We've had NSM on this site, for pity's sake -- they'd love to have some space here. What use is making space when it isn't perceived as an invitation to the good part of oneself?
> Say something interesting or say nothing at all. <
That's a good point Rick
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 12/05/2007 - 10:37am.What use is the space we make if it is not perceived as an invitation to the good in oneself?
IF there is anything good that merits space, I would be very clear about what it is. If there isn’t, I would be very clear about that too. But my main point here is that instead of rewarding negative posters with the fights they are seeking, I should be cultivating and encouraging the positive ones.
As a docent, you can edit, delete, and ban. As someone with no such authority (good, because I would be a tyrant), I have fewer options.
A related thought: studies performed in various states
Submitted by Debmonstrative on Wed, 12/05/2007 - 1:43pm.The order of things...
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 12/05/2007 - 10:00am.A quick trip from Calvino to Camus? Only because someone has already done the traveling for me. It is no coincidence that Calvino’s story-teller Marco Polo, perhaps the greatest traveler of all time, is the one telling me something about Camus’ Sisyphus. Polo was responding to this observation by his audience, The Great Khan:
There is no difference between The Great Khan’s newly discovered sense of futility and the futility symbolized by the rock. They are the same. The difference is that Sisyphus has traveled enough with his rock to learn something about it:
While this road leads inevitably to Cervantes, I would first pay a quiet visit to Carlyle:
Then I would manage a shorter visit with Cato:
before beginning the long Journey to the End of Night that stands between Céline my windmill.
I think you just
Submitted by Myrtle McFertile on Wed, 12/05/2007 - 10:19am.Be careful on your journey, Godspeed, and
Submitted by Debmonstrative on Wed, 12/05/2007 - 1:52pm.