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Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 12/04/2007 - 9:43am.

All this talk about contracts and civility and enforcement (yes, enforcement, even from Rob R.) has just got me wondering. We sure spend a lot of energy on mitigating negative influences don't we? Not just here, but anywhere that doesn't have a gate. It reminds me of my favorate quotation, which I've probably posted here before. But I'll do it again. It's from Italo Calvino's Invisible Cities:

The inferno of the living is not something that will be; if there is one, it is what is already here, the inferno where we live every day, that we form by being together. There are two ways to escape suffering it. The first is easy for many: accept the inferno and become such a part of it that you can no longer see it. The second is risky and demands constant vigilance and apprehension: seek and learn to recognize who and what, in the midst of the inferno, are not inferno, then make them endure, give them space.

 

»

This is all well and good...

But who will do the enforcing? "[Y]es, enforcement, even from Rob R." So Rob shall be tasked with enforcement of what is really a speech code. Unfortunately he has openly stated that he doesn’t want certain people here on this blog, namely me. Call me crazy but I don't really trust that any sort of fairness will be taken in to account. Am I the only one who thinks this? Does this strike anyone else as a means to prohibit speech that makes someone uncomfortable in any way they would like to take issue with? I think the answer is clear. C.

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

»

No. It's not clear...

...because it hasn't happened yet -- unless you have some way to see into the future.

You've also misquoted Rob (again). He said that he DID NOT WANT to have the sole authority BECAUSE he felt biased toward several individuals.

If you're going to use someone else's words, get it right.

And, any time you have a positive suggestion, please feel free. We're all ears.


> Say something interesting or say nothing at all. <
»

Rick,

I quoted Gug's post regarding Rob, and since I copy and pasted the quote, I am fairly certain I have it exactly right. I did not see Rob state that he felt he was too biased against 'certain individuals' to be an enforcer of speech code here. If he truly believes this of him self why is he a docent? Is it because he has been here a long time? If so, how long is long enough to be a docent? I would like to know.

Considering that I am not some sort of fortune teller, I can not see into the future, any farther than to know that any thing I say will make you irritable. My point, since you choose to pretend that you didn't see it (giving you credit for being able to understand what I wrote), is that your 'social contract' is just a speech code that will of course be used as an instrument to not have to hear opinions you don't like.

Lastly, I have positive suggestions all the time. You just don't like them. My suggestion for your speech code is this; don't do it. It is more trouble than it is worth and will only diminish people from sharing. Oh, and one other thing, be a little more thick skinned when it comes to others opinions and facts. It will get you a lot farther.

C.

<p><strong><span><span> One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn&#39;t work perfectly, then it doesn&#39;t work at all-- and the government should step in. </span></span></strong></p><p>Thomas Sowell </p>

 

»

I notice that basic blogging ethics and intellectual honesty

and enforcement of any social contract are making certain folks uneasy.

Rhetoric is easy, open honest communication is a little harder.

Swift-boating folks is harder if blogging ethics and honesty are a community standard.  

Public apologies may be in order when a regular misquotes another regular. That seems like a basic tool of civil discourse.  

Just edited this to take into account Tschida's point that he quoted G, not Rob R.  Good point, but the fear about Rob as enforcer seems a little unreasonable given Rob's statements on being the enforcer. 

»

I can't find Rob's quote

I can't find Rob's quote that T is misquoting.
»

That would be because...

I didn't quote Rob! But don't let what I said get in your way, just keep saying I misquoted Rob. Good on ya Emmett. C.

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

»

I meant the original quote

Back in some foggy comment thread that I can't find. Just a link please. Thanx.
»

I don't know where the link is/was because I didn't read it.

This would be the reason I quoted Gug. C.

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

»

mmhmmm

To quote a quote I quote your quote quoting quotes concerning captive quotes.

»

This was not meant to be a thread about

enforcing social contracts or to discuss paranoid fantasies about censorship. Calvino's quotation is about an alternative. We seem to waste a lot of time and energy trying to convince a few negative people that what we object to is their negativity, not their politics. All that energy could be better used cultivating and encouraging the good things we find here on Olyblog. It's just a shame.

This is not at all a criticism of the recent attempt to fashion a social contract. I appreciate that effort.

»

I could barely agree more

We seem to waste a lot of time and energy trying to convince a few negative people that what we object to is their negativity, not their politics. All that energy could be better used cultivating and encouraging the good things we find here on Olyblog.

Irrespective of time's reality, if I were to graph my existence then a visible correlation would exist between my spending time in OlyBlog comments and my creating content for OlyBlog. This is not to say that OlyBlog should be above reproach, in fact I'm a firm believer in stress testing and it remains to be seen how valuable a resource this can be to Olympia.

I'll just assume that everyone here has a life outside of OlyBlog and that coming here is a choice. To what end that choice?

»

Right on, G

I really like that quote, and have been musing about it since you brought it up last night. Unfortunately, I can't separate it in my thinking from some of the images and memories and associations I have with "Lake of Fire," the abortion documentary. But it all sort of fits together.

Peace became pizza. -- Guglielmo

»

Way to take your depression over Olyblog lately and turn it into

something positive, Gug. You go.
»

This was not an attempt to change the course of the conversation

I considered placing the comment in another thread, but chose this one because of how it applied to Rob. I didn't feel it would have much continutity if people had to link back and forth for what I was refering to. My opening line pertained directly to your opening so I kept my comment here. That is all. So I apologize for getting off topic a bit. C.

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

»

I like the Calvino quote.

My partner and I think about the thing that Calvino is talking about in terms of being awake or sleep-walking through life.  It's not easy being awake.  That is one of the aspects of the Matrix movie that I liked, the folks who were alive, but not awake. That seemed like a powerful description of much of human culture. 
»

My comment about Rob was

a reference to a comment he made about the social contract having no teeth. Anyone who knows Rob from his posts here should be a little surpised that he is concerned about enforcement. It was just an example of how this phenominon (convincing negative people that we object to their negativity, not their politics) is affecting us.
»

I understand what you are saying...

I didn't know that Rob did not want to be an enforcer. But he is a docent, isn't he? I did not see the thread, comment or post where he said he felt he is too biased. It was not my entire point. The 'social contract' thing is a speech code. You can't say something that makes someone else feel bad, and if you do, you might face some kind of consequences. Maybe in some round about way we agree on some degree of some point about this. The speech code should not only have no teeth, it should not even exist. C.

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

»

Free speech is enshrined in law

what is true in this instance is that you think the social contract is a speech code. There is a communication trap here that is in common use and contributes to the rancor in the community.

Example: Tschida writes "The 'social contract' thing is a speech code."

I don't think that is factual or true (factual and true, having some overlap, but not necessarily the same thing).

On the other hand, if Tschida writes: "I believe the 'social contract' thing is a speech code." I think that is both factual and true. It is authentic opinion and opens the door to dialogue.

The dialogue breaks down in these situations because Tschida (example for this case, not just Tschida generally) believes the social contract is a speech code so firmly that it does not occur to frame the opinion correctly. Idealogues of all stripe are in the habit of just stating their opinion over and over again as fact and the dialogue breaks down quickly.

The natural response to "The 'social contract' thing is a speech code." is "no, it isn't." then, we get "yes, it is." and this continues ad nauseam.

The natural response to "I believe the 'social contract' thing is a speech code." might be "why do you believe that?" "What essential right to speak do you think you will lose through the social contract." I have some hope for intelligent dialogue with this process.

Bottom line: we should be careful in our "speech" here and type out the extra words necessary to support a dialogue. We should also reflect as we type and recognize when we are stating something as fact when it is truly personal belief. If we can recognize that situation, we can amend our statement to add the true and honest "I believe" clause that opens the door to dialogue.

The inferno exists and we are in it when we are not self-aware enough to discriminate the difference between our strongly-held beliefs and fact.

»

OK....I've watched this go on for quite awhile....

I finally need to ask the question:

Why keep going back to a place where you think people are "against" you?

Something I learned in my wrestling match with The Olympian is that I'm not going to win on their turf.  They made it quite clear that they ran the show. 

 Recently, I sent a donation to Rick McKinnon, as a vote of confidence that I'm satisfied with the way that Olyblog is being run and the acknowledgement that he "runs the show" (if he chooses).  Rick and I will readily admit that we've had our differences - publically, in fact.  He said so much as he somewhat recommended that the docents "boot" me, at one point.  Yet, that didn't happen.

What did happen?  Either we agreed to disagree or one of us changed or both of us changed.  Regardless, today, I'm on Olyblog, Rick sent me a nice thank you email for my donation and all is....well........WELL.  Now that could change tomorrow, but that's the roll of the dice that I take.

I have my own blog and have been rather inactive on it of late.  I enjoy Olyblog and for that reason I seek to find the middle ground to avoid eventual "boots" or "dog house" episodes.  You know what?  It hasn't hurt me one bit.  In fact, I think I've grown in some ways by learning that I'm not the only fish in the sea.

Why worry about who is making what decisions?  If I was banned from Olyblog tomorrow for a perceived violation, I have a choice to move on, or discuss a solution to the problem.

Meanwhile, it would be rather intellectually dishonest if I were to send Rick a donation and then say that he has no ownership rights to Olyblog.

I like Gug's earlier (a few days ago) rule about acting like you are a guest in someone's home.

»

All of you are equally wrong about me.

First, just because I don't like how laws are enforced now doesn't mean I think there shouldn't be laws and outcomes if they are broken. Society needs to find a way to work things out without hiring goons is all I'm saying.

Tschida, I welcome you as person to this blog. When you consistently use argument styles that shut other people down, or when you result to ad hominem attacks, that's when I don't want you. I'm talking about behavior not you as person or your political views. You're the kid in the sandbox that keeps throwing sand in other kids' eyes and then can't understand when they don't want to play with him anymore.

Rick, I pretty much addressed this with my comments to Tschida, but I want to restate what I meant. I'm not worried about my bias getting in the way when it comes to certain people, I could care less. I'm invested in making this blog a safe place, and making this blog a new source for local residents. The biggest worry in my head was based on perceptions people would have of attempted enforcement.

Why is it that conservatives always seem to be the ones being called out for inappropriate behavior here? Well, they are in the minority and perhaps feel like they have to be scrappy to survive. It's our job as docents, in my opinion, to make everyone comfortable here to the point that they can express their beliefs without worry. That goes both ways. If Tschida says something and twenty people jump on him and tell him he's wrong and make him feel unwelcome and he reacts to it, is it his fault? Should would blame him? Or is there something bigger going on that allows that environment? If we allow conservative voices to be ganged up on, we're breeding reactionary discourse. When facilitating meetings, I often ask people not to restate their opinions, and I ask that people don't repeat what others have said, but to always be adding something to the discussion. If a person disagrees they should explain what specifically they disagree on without paying attention to who they're disagreeing with.

I could keep going but am pressed for time right now.

»

Rob,

Ad hominem attacks? I don't think so. When I do actually make remarks about what some one says, it is almost always because of hypocrisy taking place. Some times it is some off point convolution that is used as an attempt to cloud and blur the painfully obvious. I don't need ad hominem attacks, to make a point. You don't know me as a person on this blog, or anywhere else for that matter. So what I take your statement to mean is I am welcomed by you so long as I only read. Lastly, conservatives are not the only ones getting called for 'inappropriate behavior'. In fact I am fairly certain you have been called on it many, many times by people other than me. C.

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

»

Perhaps you don't partake in

Perhaps you don't partake in directly ad hominem attacks, you may be right there. You do have a way of reacting that makes other people uncomfortable with having a conversation with you here.

And just to clarify, I welcome you here when you're here to listen, share, learn and communicate.

»

Alas

Sorry the quote wasn't given much time to endure... But I've decided to reclaim a little space for it, right here on this page. I wonder... how do we recognize something that isn't the inferno? I'm not sure.... And then secondly, more of a technical question, what exactly is the meaning of "apprehension" there? Does it mean anxiety? Or does it just mean holding on to something? What do you think?
»

nice questions

For "apprehension" I was going with #3.

»

Here's a case in point

Tsch points out that he doesn't engage in ad hom. attacks, but rather he points out percieved hypocracies. Now, my first reaction to those kinds of posts is to assume they are the product of a combative, inflamatory reactionary. That's me just being part of the Inferno. On the otherhand I can take his comment at face value, find something in it to appreciate, if anything,... and "give it room." And just let the rest of it go.
»

Does either way really help you escape suffering?

And if both of those things are ways to escape the suffering of the inferno, what is the nature of the suffering in the first place?
»

I'm not smart enough to explain that

But I think it has something to do with making the best of that walk down the hill before you have to start pushing the rock to the top again. I can be more vague if you like.
»

You're such an optimist!

There's no downhill stroll, ever! There's just two ways of struggling up the hill: pushing with all your strength and barely succeeding; and pushing with all your strength and failing. You don't walk down the hill, you fail down the hill, crushed beneath the boulder of your fruitless efforts.

Now if you could learn to enjoy that, life would be sweet.

»

Ah ha! "Fruitless!?"

It is only fruitless when you become conscious. And that is the beginning of your victory. Are you a rebel or are you just another rock pusher? It is you who decides that fate.
»

That was a quick trip...

...from Calvino to Camus. Are you proceeding alphabetically?
»

I think G may be tilting at

I think G may be tilting at windmills a bit
»

If so, there is proof that he's proceeding in alphabetical order

since the phrase "tilting at windmills" originated with Cervantes.
»

(that's why I chose that reference)

nt
»

Oh sure, you did...

even the smarty-pantses on this site wouldn't have made that connection...didn't you just get lucky?
»

Although I guess I should admit that maybe

the reference is not as obtuse as one might think.
»

Moving on....

How far we have strayed from the inferno!

Does this sound familiar?

"Here sighs and lamentations and loud cries were echoing across the starless air,so that, as soon as I set out, I wept. Strange utterances, horrible pronouncements, accents of anger, words of suffering, and voices shrill and faint, and beating hands..."

Believe it or not, this was written before Olyblog existed!

»

More alphabetical-orderliness!

This is all so strangely coincidental... although Gug may have subsequently orchestrated it a bit. Still, it works for me. And Myrtle - it is GOOD that we have strayed from the inferno; that is the point...now we must hold fast to that...I think that means we have to encourage more alphabetical-orderliness...
»

I'm familiar with it because

I'm familiar with it because of my recent history of things Quixote related.
»

I love Cervantes and am waiting patiently as we move

through the alphabet until I can pounce with a Spinoza or Voltaire reference.  Somebody pm me when we get to Thomas Mann so I can be ready.
»

Touche

n/t
»

The quote encapsulates a certain zen quality...

...that I like. And I am very aware of the vast amount of time spent counteracting the negative. Yet, I have the strong feeling that simply making space will not be healthy in the end. We've had NSM on this site, for pity's sake -- they'd love to have some space here. What use is making space when it isn't perceived as an invitation to the good part of oneself?


> Say something interesting or say nothing at all. <
»

That's a good point Rick

What use is the space we make if it is not perceived as an invitation to the good in oneself?

IF there is anything good that merits space, I would be very clear about what it is. If there isn’t, I would be very clear about that too. But my main point here is that instead of rewarding negative posters with the fights they are seeking, I should be cultivating and encouraging the positive ones.

As a docent, you can edit, delete, and ban. As someone with no such authority (good, because I would be a tyrant), I have fewer options.

»

A related thought: studies performed in various states

concerning environmental regulations indicate that incentives work better than penalties when trying to keep potential violaters in line. Maybe we can issue little gold stars to people making positive comments.
»

The order of things...

A quick trip from Calvino to Camus? Only because someone has already done the traveling for me. It is no coincidence that Calvino’s story-teller Marco Polo, perhaps the greatest traveler of all time, is the one telling me something about Camus’ Sisyphus. Polo was responding to this observation by his audience, The Great Khan:

It is all useless, if the last landing place can only be the infernal city, and it is there that, in ever-narrowing circles, the current is drawing us.

There is no difference between The Great Khan’s newly discovered sense of futility and the futility symbolized by the rock. They are the same. The difference is that Sisyphus has traveled enough with his rock to learn something about it:

Sisyphus, proletarian of the gods, powerless and rebellious, knows the whole extent of his wretched condition: it is what he thinks of during his descent. The lucidity that was to constitute his torture at the same time crowns his victory. There is no fate that can not be surmounted by scorn.

While this road leads inevitably to Cervantes, I would first pay a quiet visit to Carlyle:

…hold one's tongue till some meaning lie behind to set it wagging.

Then I would manage a shorter visit with Cato:

Anger so clouds the mind, that it cannot perceive the truth.

before beginning the long Journey to the End of Night that stands between Céline my windmill.

»

I think you just

I think you just out-literature-majored the rest of us. Can I sit next to you during the test?
»

Be careful on your journey, Godspeed, and

when you reach the windmills remember the environmental incentives.
»

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