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Submitted by Jeff Brigham on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 12:40pm.
I have included “Loss of the Arab Palestinian State” in the title of this blog entry because that is exactly what happened. The Palestinian Arabs had a state or nation. Israel DID NOT take away their state. The Palestinian Arabs lost their state because of decisions made by their leaders and the leaders of surrounding Arab nations, not by the actions of Israel. This is widely ignored by current supporters of the Palestinian Arabs. Prior to the First World War, the area known as Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire, and controlled by Turkey. During the First World War, the area was taken by the British. After the First World War, it was controlled by the British under a mandate by the League of Nations. During this mandate, there was much conflict between the Jewish and Arab residents of Palestine. After the Second World War, the British were wanted out and turned the problem over to the new United Nations. In 1947, the United Nations approved the partition of Palestine into two nations, one Jewish and one Arab. (Yes, that’s right, the Palestinian Arabs had a state.) The partition plan and the borders that it drew were far from perfect. Even so, the Jewish Palestinians accepted the plan. The Palestinian Arabs rejected the plan and chose war. (The start of a pattern!) The surrounding Arab nations rejected the plan and chose war. (Again, the start of a pattern!) In 1948, the British withdrew their military forces. The Jewish Palestinians declared their nation known as Israel. They openly offered peace to the Palestinian Arab nation and the surrounding Arab nations. Of course, the Palestinian Arabs and the surrounding Arab nations immediately attacked Israel. These Arab nations openly promised the extermination of the Palestinian Jews. During the war, the United Nations managed to get all parties to agree to a 30-day ceasefire. Before the end of those 30 days, the United Nations asked all parties to renew the ceasefire. I’m sure by now you know how this turns out. Yes, that’s right; Israel chose peace and accepted the renewal of the ceasefire. The Arab nations chose war and rejected the renewal of the ceasefire. Upon the renewal of fighting, the Israelis proved to be surprisingly tough, courageous, competent, and resourceful. They made significant advances against the Arab forces. The Arab forces were now losing. Now losing to the Israeli forces, the Arab nations accepted a cease fire. Even at this point, there existed an area of Palestine for the Arab Palestinians. That area is what is now known as the “West Bank”. Israel DID NOT take this land. The Arab nation of Jordon took control of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and the Arab nation of Egypt took control of the Gaza Strip. Yes, that is correct! The Palestinian Arabs had a state. It was not Israel that took away their nation. It was two Arab nations! (A fact conveniently disregarded by current supporters of Palestinians) If the Palestinian Arabs had chosen peace instead of war they would have had a nation since 1948 and they would have one now. They do not have a nation because they continually choose war and terror. Thank you, Jeff Brigham "America’s greatest chapter is still to be written, for the best is yet to come." President Ronald Reagan |
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Well, that's one side of the story.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 12:49pm.That really is a one-sided interpretation of history
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 12:58pm.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
They shoulda put Israel in Oklahoma...
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 1:07pm....way less hassles.
Rob and Guglielmo
Submitted by Jeff Brigham on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 1:10pm.Rob and Guglielmo,
You have made nice wide and vague accusations. How about backing them up with some facts? Refute the points in my post with facts.
Jeff Brigham
The fact is that this is only one side of the story.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 1:12pm.Then refute the points I
Submitted by Jeff Brigham on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 1:25pm.Then refute the points I made and the facts that I have shown you!
Jeff Brigham
How do I know these are facts, you didn't site any sources?
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 1:35pm.Your affection for some UN mandates and disregard for others
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 1:35pm.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
You will notice that the
Submitted by Jeff Brigham on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 1:48pm.You will notice that the scope of this lesson was on the “Birth of Israel and the Loss of the Arab Palestinian State” I did not “minimize the effects and violence of British conquest”. I stated how the British came to be in control of Palestine to the needed degree. If you feel something about “effects and violence of British conquest” is pertinent, then show me the facts and justify it.
As far as your “possible complicity between the British, the early Jewish state, and other neighboring states regarding their territorial interests in the Palestinian side of the partition.” ; There were British that favored the Jewish Palestinians and British that favored the Arab Palestinians. Again, show me the facts and justify your allegations.Jeff Brigham
Nope,
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 1:53pm.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
I love Olyblog
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 2:56pm.Present an argument, however one sided it may be and have people complain about it, but fail to provide a dissenting viewpoint or provide information that backs up their statements.
I'm waiting for the other side of the argument. I've done some research into the matter, but want to see one of the parties complaining to put up their argument.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
He didn't present an argument Six
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 3:01pm.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
Yes I did some research
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 3:08pm.And among other things found a WWII Nazi made Mauser rifle reworked by Israel in the early 50's and stamped with a Star of David I am tempted to buy if nothing else for irony's sake.
Irony aside, I will state I am on the side of Isreal's right to self determination and for a return to an ancestral homeland.
I want to see someone else present the other part of the argument before I jump in.
EDIT: Corrected spelling, added link.
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
My beef with JB's post is independent of my opion of Israel
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 3:14pm.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
I love Wikipedia
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 3:37pm.Birth of the modern Israeli state...
Israel
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
Six, Another Neat Piece of Irony!
Submitted by Jeff Brigham on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 9:17pm.Jeff Brigham
Okay, here are a couple tidbits Six
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 3:54pm.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
On Tidbits! Comments in Bold.
Submitted by Jeff Brigham on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 9:09pm.First, the Balfour Agreement as a catalyst for Arab-Jewish hostilities cannot be over-looked, but it was.
The Balfour Declaration was issued in 1917. It was a statement of intent that read "His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country" The fact remains that If the Palestinian Arabs had accepted the partition and declared statehood like the Palestinian Jews did, there would have been no war and the Palestinian Arabs would have had their nation in 1948. That is why the Palestinian Jews have had a nation since 1948.
Israel's occupation of 77% of Palestinian territories in 1948 is ignored while Jordanian and Syrian maneuvers are criticized and conflated with Palestinian desires.
Yes, the Palestinian Arabs lost a lot of land that they would have had if they had chosen peace instead of war. That is one of the risks they took when they resorted to war. When you resort to war and lose, there is no “do over”. They took their chances and lost. The same thing happened to the South during our Civil War. Prior to secession the South had managed to stave off the abolitionists in Congress. Once they seceded and no longer were represented in Congress the abolitionists in Congress had their way. Then along came the union army under men such as Grant, Sherman, and Sheridan. Well, we know how that ended. Oh, also, Virginia never recovered her western counties. They are now known as the State of West Virginia.
There's a lot more about the history of the conflict at the UN site. I'll let you plow through it.
I’ll plow through and critique some UN stuff tomorrow.
Jeff Brigham
I would never engage in a debate with
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 11:24pm.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
Guglielmo, You are not
Submitted by Jeff Brigham on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 12:57am.Guglielmo,
You are not engaging in a debate with me because you cannot disprove any of my points nor the facts that I have shown you. You know that the facts and points that I have made with them are accurate.
Jeff Brigham
I would say the same about you Jeff B...
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 1:11am....you've left some unanswered questions on your Jan 22nd blog. Again, can't wait to hear your take on the UN...
analogy
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 10:08pm.Your analogy is not accurate.
Submitted by Jeff Brigham on Tue, 02/19/2008 - 11:40pm.Your analogy is not accurate. If you had studied your history a little better, you would know that the vast majority of land settled by the Jewish Palestinians was purchased from the Arab owners.
So, your corrected analogy would be; You sold the guy down the street part of your land and several buildings on that land. It was a legal sale and you were paid for it. Now, you demand that he move. You, violently attack him and you encourage others to attack him. Now through civil court, he has been awarded the remainder of your land because of damages that you caused. Now you say: Oh, I think I'd like everything to go back to the way things were before I attacked you and injured you.
Sorry, I don't think that would fly very well. You really do need to study the history of that region in more detail.
Jeff Brigham
Accurate Analogy
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 5:52pm.I think that my analogy may be more accurate than you would care to believe Jeff.
I found what seems to be credible information (from the BBC news service) about the conflict in Palestine over the creation of Israel:
The State of Israel, the first Jewish state for nearly 2,000 years, was proclaimed at 1600 on 14 May 1948 in Tel Aviv. The declaration came into effect the following day as the last British troops withdrew. Palestinians remember 15 May as "al-Nakba", or the Catastrophe.
The year had begun with Jewish and Arab armies each staging attacks on territory held by the other side. Jewish forces, backed by the Irgun and Lehi militant groups made more progress, seizing areas alloted to the Jewish state but also conquering substantial territories allocated for the Palestinian one. [emphasis mine]
Irgun and Lehi massacred scores of inhabitants of the village of Deir Yassin near Jerusalem on 9 April. Word of the massacre spread terror among Palestinians and hundreds of thousands fled to Lebanon, Egypt and the area now known as the West Bank.
The Jewish armies were victorious in the Negev, Galilee, West Jerusalem and much of the coastal plain.
The day after the state of Israel was declared five Arab armies from Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq immediately invaded Israel but were repulsed, and the Israeli army crushed pockets of resistance. Armistices established Israel's borders on the frontier of most of the earlier British Mandate Palestine.
Egypt kept the Gaza Strip while Jordan annexed the area around East Jerusalem and the land now known as the West Bank. These territories made up about 25% of the total area of British Mandate Palestine.
I can't wait to hear you take on the UN tomorrow, Jeff...
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 12:40am.¦
this is not about Olympia! >not even close<
Submitted by chad360 on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 9:42am.I will debate this whole thread!~
This is not "hyper-local"...what is up with this?
--isn't JB the guy who holds the sign about that says "God bless...Bulldozers"?
I'd suggest that if folks really want to unload on this topic, have a moderated debate in public.
I'm sure OlyBlog is not the place for this dialog.
-any thoughts?
Chad360, I must have missed
Submitted by Jeff Brigham on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 11:18pm.Chad360,
I must have missed the times when you told "bert" that his posts on "impeachment" were not "hyper-local" and that "OlyBlog is not the place for this dialog".
I'm sure that you will vist http://www.olyblog.net/bush-worst-president-ever and tell Rob Richards that his post is not "hyper-local" and that "OlyBlog is not the place for this dialog".
I'm sure that you will vist http://www.olyblog.net/american-pride and tell A. Larry that that his post is not "hyper-local" and that "OlyBlog is not the place for this dialog".
Chad360, I'll visit these posts tomorrow and look forward to reading your comments to them.
Jeff Brigham
...well, you are wrong.
Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 10:33am....and regardless of how "sure" you are, the matter is at hand that you are posting stuff that is SO not about Olympia.
Don't confuse the issue, just deal with the fact that what you posted has nothing to do with Olympia.
This isn't hyper-local
Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 10:44am.Chad,
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 12:11pm.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Israel and Rapture
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 5:53pm.Come again?
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 11:21pm."Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
It was a song...
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 11:27pm....by Blondie.
Trying to make a bad joke
Submitted by security_six on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 11:29pm.to bert's statement. :-)
"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown
Are you baiting Robert?
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 12:13pm.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Actually, it is a very good question
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 12:42pm.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
The question is baiting and I think you know it.
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 1:24pm.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Not sure what makes it "baiting"
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 1:41pm.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
Intellectual honesty?
Submitted by Tschida on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 1:47pm.A) it is an attempt to break the speech code by a docent and high jack a thread,
B) it is clearly antagonistic
C) it is in my opinion intellectually dishonest of you to suggest you don't know this already.
People for centruies have been claiming that the end times are upon us. That this even or that event is a harbinger of the end times. Jeff didn't bring it up. It is baiting, and I think you know it. It is possible however that I have given you too much credit to see it for what it is. I have made this error with you in the past. Perhaps I have done it again.
C.
One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
Actually Tsch
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 1:58pm.Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes
Here is an excerpt from
Submitted by Jeff Brigham on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 11:04pm.Here is an excerpt from Chapter 2 of “The Question of Palestine and the United Nations” See http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/palestine/ch2.pdf. This excerpt pertains to the time period covered in my original post. My comments are in bold.
First Arab-Israeli war, 1948-1949
On 14 May 1948, the United Kingdom relinquished its Mandate over Palestine and disengaged its forces. On the same day, the Jewish Agency proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel on the territory allotted to it by the partition plan. That is essentially what I stated. Also, NOTE WHO DID NOT PROCLAIM A STATE or nation on the territory allotted to it by the partition plan! The Arab Higher Committee (the political organization of the Palestinian Arabs) refused to accept the partition and wanted it all. They refused to declare statehood and chose war instead. If the Arab Higher Committee had accepted the partition and declared statehood like the Palestinian Jews did, there would have been no war and the Palestinian Arabs would have had their nation in 1948.
Fierce hostilities immediately broke out between the Arab and Jewish communities. The next day, regular troops of the neighboring Arab States entered the territory to assist Palestinian Arabs. True but somewhat smoothed over. The Palestinian Arabs had rejected the offer of peace and continued attacks against the Palestinian Jews. After the withdrawal of British forces, the armed forces of five Arab nations attacked the Palestinian Jews.
The fighting was halted after several weeks, through a four week truce called for by the Security Council on 29 May 1948. The truce went into effect on 11 June and was supervised by the national military observers, which came to be known as the United Nations Truce Supervision Organization (UNTSO). Both sides accepted this four week truce.
Despite the efforts of the Mediator, no agreement could be reached on an extension of the truce, and fighting broke out again on 8 July. The Israeli government accepted the extension of the truce. The Arab League, representing the Arab nations, refused the extension. See paragraph 18 of the Report Of The United Nations Mediator On Palestine To The Security Council, dated 12 July 1948. See http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/c25aba03f1e079db85256cf40073bfe6/06eb90c615e1dbcd802564b400556e40!OpenDocument
On 15 July 1948, the Security Council decided in a resolution that the situation in Palestine constituted a threat to the peace. It ordered a ceasefire and declared that failure to comply would be construed as a breach of the peace requiring immediate consideration of enforcement measures under Chapter VII of the United Nations Charter. In accordance with the resolution, the second truce came into force. By that time, Israel controlled much of the territory allotted to the Arab State by the partition resolution, including the western part of Jerusalem. Yes. As I have previously stated, the Palestinian Arabs, because they wanted it all, chose war over peace. When they chose war, they took the risk that the stronger side would gain territory. They thought that they and the surrounding Arab countries would prove stronger and would gain all the land. Turns out they were wrong. When you resort to war and lose, there is no “do over”. They took their chances and lost.
Egypt and Jordan respectively administered the remaining portions of Gaza and the West Bank of the Jordan River (which included East Jerusalem, or the old city). More fighting took place in October 1948 and March 1949, during which Israel took over other areas, some allotted to the Arab State. In 1950, Jordan brought the West Bank including East Jerusalem formally under its jurisdiction pending a solution to the problem. This again brings to light the fact that the “West Bank” territory and Gaza were taken by Jordan and Egypt respectively. The governments that prevented the Palestinian Arabs from having a state after 1948 were Arab governments, NOT Israel. Those governments could have easily facilitated a Palestinian Arab state but they chose not to. Jordan and Egypt held those territories until those Arab governments, once again, chose war in 1967.
Jeff Brigham
"America’s greatest chapter is still to be written, for the best is yet to come."
President Ronald Reagan
some reading
Submitted by enpen on Wed, 02/20/2008 - 11:41pm.Jeff, have you read Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict?
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
This is why people hate Olyblog
Submitted by a.future.with.n... on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 1:36pm.and why we're losing readers. Everything is not a fight. We don't have to fight constantly. This is a fight for christ's sake, with sides and everything. What happened to honest debate?
If this is what Olyblog becomes than I'm finding a different blog. We had such a good thing going. Too bad there are Jeff Brighams in the world.
Shutting thead down...
Submitted by Rick on Thu, 02/21/2008 - 2:19pm....due to a lack of respectful exchange of ideas
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract