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Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 3:08pm.
Have at it.
» |
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"Peace Through Superior Firepower"
Submitted by security_six on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 3:24pm.those who live by the sword die by the sword? anyone?
Submitted by eregular on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 3:29pm."That is enough"
Submitted by security_six on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 3:35pm.Then Jesus asked them, "When I sent you without purse, bag, or sandals, did you lack anything?" "Nothing," they answered. He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you do not have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one..."
The disciples said, "See, Lord, here are two swords."
"That is enough," he replied.
Luke, 22:35-38
Sorry Six,
Submitted by Phil Owen on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 1:07pm.but that passage makes for a weak support for the use of violence. Two swords is most definately not sufficient for a group of thirteen people facing the kind of persecution that was coming to them.
There are two points to make about this passage. First is that the intention of the swords was that "scripture must be fulfilled in me [Jesus], 'And he was counted among the lawless'; and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled." Jesus is referring here to Isaiah 53:12: "...because he poured out himself to death, and was numbered among the transgressors [or lawless]; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." It is fully clear that Jesus did not see himself as lawless or as a "transgressor", and had no intention of promoting lawlessness (see Luke 22:49-51!). Yet, in classic New Testament form, he drew on the Hebrew scriptures and saw that he must be "numbered among the transgressors" [ie thought to be lawless by the rest of society]. This passage is very similar to the use of the donkey in Jesus' entrance to Jerusalem; it was necessary for the fulfillment of scripture.
Secondly, Jesus quite clearly did not intend for the swords to be used. I'll refer again to 22:49-51: "...they asked, 'Lord, should we strike them with the sword?' Then one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. But Jesus said, 'No more of this!' And he touched his ear and healed him." This passage immediately follows the "two swords" passage, and puts it in context. It should be noted that the Messiah was expected to be a kind of warrior king who would restore Israel to its place of power in the region, and at Jesus' time in Israel there was a strong insurrectionary movement known as the Zealots. It is not unlikely that many thought Jesus, who assumed the title of Messiah, would ally himself with the Zealots to use violent force and throw off the yoke of the Roman oppressors. He did not, and his teachings make it abundantly clear that Jesus had a very different idea of "liberation" than was held by the Zealots. Jesus admonished his followers to be peaceful over and over again in the Gospels, even in the face of, and specifically in the face of oppression and hatred.
This passage is often taken out of context and misinterpreted to support the use of violence. But to do so is a misuse of scripture; Jesus expects his followers to return violence and hatred with kindness and love.
The Canaanite's Call
Well
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 7:12pm.I'm not sure it justifies violence per se, however the apostles WERE carrying swords at the time. At any rate, I'm not sure "He who lives by the sword...." means anyone who chooses to arm themsevles will die by "the sword" either. I through it out as a counterpoint to the thread I replied to.
"It's okay to be armed"
security_six's social contract
i'm all for swords
Submitted by a.future.with.n... on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 3:50pm.Dunno
Submitted by security_six on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 3:52pm.What Oly's blade laws are. If a sword is not illegal, the same law that protects my OC will protect yours. If it is legal, lemme know, we can have a gun/sword OC picnic in the park!
"It's okay to be armed"
security_six's social contract
I think your okay
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 4:30pm.Dunno
Submitted by security_six on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 7:17pm.Presuming a sword is legal, the cops have been getting an earful and a lot of crap from me about OC, and my lawyer is going to be giving them a nice wakeup call... now may be the time to OC in Oly. If I get detained and disarmed one more time there is going to be a lawsuit. I am sick and tired of this s--t All I have on my side is some dusty document written back in 1889 and oh yes, state law and court rulings. Silly me thinking I could actually do something highly protected by law and get away with. Eff em. I try to be a patient man, but they have pushed too far, and I am going to push back with every legal tool at my disposal. I have to send some documents to my lawyer so he can write a nasty letter to a couple of people in Oly. After that, the next step will be a lawsuit.
I'll start it off.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 3:56pm.The other event happened at the main gate to the port. A group of protesters were lined up against a chain link fence with their arms linked together. They were again being passive, they were sprayed at point blank range with chemical weapons. No one in this instance was arrested, they were sprayed and then physically moved from where they were standing by riot police with their batons. The protesters were expecting to be arrested for not moving and would have gone peacefully. That was their plan from the beginning.
A lawyer I've spoken with who specializes in these kinds of cases suggested that these uses violated the manufacturer's guidelines for safe usage of their product, basically, that these chemical weapons were not intended to be used the way OPD used then, and that that makes the weapons more dangerous. A heavy dose, such as one would get from a point blank range application of the chemicals could trigger many dangerous health problems and potentially lead to death. The police had no way of knowing whether the protesters were allergic to the chemical, had heart conditions, asthma, etc, and given that fact should have shown restraint by making arrests first when dealing with a passive crowd.
Yes
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 4:04pm.The protesters did not pose a threat to the police. Therefore the use of OC (pepper spray), a chemical weapon, was clearly a violation of statutory code - as well as an assault on human rights and dignity.
Therefore the use of OC
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 8:07pm.I don't have time to dig through the RCW right now, but isn't OC-10 a tool given to law enforcement personnel to use as a compliance device?
Again, you'll note that the protesters were given numerous verbal warnings. I'm going to guess that in the Olympia Police Department's "progression" of compliance devices, OC-10 is more than likely the most immediate step after verbal commands.
use for compliance
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 10:20pm.Are you sure about that?
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 10:30pm.also,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 10:35pm.It's important to use the right terminology or we'll all get confused.
If we are going to get the terminology correct
Submitted by JT on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 8:39am.it's "less lethal", not "less than lethal". “America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
The Tackle
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 4:26pm.The protesters were
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 8:03pm.Isn't the point to stay a step a head of who you're dealing with, though? Throw the proverbial "curveball?"
Can you clarify your question?
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 10:03pm.The protesters were
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 10:18pm.You said the expectation was that the police would come and arrest those blocking traffic.
It doesn't seem the police would maintain any advantage by playing into the expectation and do little to deter future action.
As far as I can recall, this is the first time local law enforcement has done anything about massive demonstrations in Olympia, dating back to 1999's May Day events which tied up the Westside.
Maybe that trend is why those blocking the Port entrance and I-5 on-ramp felt little to nothing would happen and is why I said Olympia finally threw a "curveball," exercising the full-scale of compliance devices available to police officers.
If you're right,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 10:30pm.I assume OPD's goal was to get the trucks/vehicles moving out of the port. In my opinion, arresting everybody and not releasing them until all of the vehicles were moved would have been a lot more efficient and a lot less costly than how they handled it. There will be civil suits and judging by the legal precedents in similar cases that I've read, the city stands a good chance of losing, and that will cost them even more. The OPD will be to blame for that.
I'm going to take up smoking
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 4:09pm.I'm going to drive drunk from the Broho and sue Buck or Pit when I run over someone in the crosswalk.
I'm going to break into a house and sue the homeowner if I trip over something in the dark livingroom.
I'm going to sue the major record labels for aiding in the demise of my hearing.
I'm going to sue the Olympia School District because they allowed me to drop out at age 19 having earned only a small handful of credits, instead of just graduating me.
I'm going to sue The Olympian for emotional distress...they misspelled my name when I took part in the 1996 Polar Bear Swim.
Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue
Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn børk! børk! børk!
The Swedish Chef
This is completely counterproductive.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 5:11pm.Rob, you said it was an Open
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 5:13pm.Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue
Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn børk! børk! børk!
The Swedish Chef
You're right
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 5:17pm.Actually it was a snarky
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 5:21pm.Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue
Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn børk! børk! børk!
The Swedish Chef
I apologize
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 5:23pm.I also used it as an invitation to JT and Guglielmo to have their conversation about use of force. I think I was caught up in thinking about that when I responded to your post.
No worries. After all, it is
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 5:25pm.Yorn desh born, der ritt de gitt der gue
Orn desh, dee born desh, de umn børk! børk! børk!
The Swedish Chef
Data
Submitted by JT on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 4:19pm.gentlemen.
The protesters did not pose a threat to the police. Therefore the use of OC (pepper spray), a chemical weapon, was clearly a violation of statutory code
A lawyer I've spoken with who specializes in these kinds of cases suggested that these uses violated the manufacturer's guidelines for safe usage of their product, basically, that these chemical weapons were not intended to be used the way OPD used then, and that that makes the weapons more dangerous. A heavy dose, such as one would get from a point blank range application of the chemicals could trigger many dangerous health problems and potentially lead to death.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Data: Starting Points
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 5:08pm.So Rob W.,
Submitted by JT on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 5:12pm.you believe it was a violation of dept policy, not a violation of law as you first posted, right?
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
What's the difference
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 10:24pm.If you can point me to the applicable 'law', I will also search that to see if the OPD violated it.
first,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 5:09pm.I too would like it if Rob W. could prove his assertion, it would be helpful to the debate.
Beyond needing data to prove one of the points I made, any response to what happened in the two scenarios I gave?
Question of Threat
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 5:23pm.For clarity and to summarize, here are two passages that stand out: "POLICE 1.3 Interact respectfully with everyone in the community, and likewise earn their respect. Using force only when needed, and displaying humility, cordiality, and courtesy at all levels of the agency helps community members see themselves as allies with the police."
and
OPD General Order 1.3.3 III C. "Department-approved less lethal munitions are appropriate for deployment: 1) when circumstances involve a subject who presents a threat of bodily harm to self or others..."
When was less lethal deployed?
Submitted by JT on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 5:29pm.I haven't heard but one incident the whole time of the protests, and that is when the officers were taking rocks.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Use of Force was applied
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 5:32pm.Ok Rob W.
Submitted by JT on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 5:39pm.you are all over the board here an I'm not having much luck tracking you.
So it's the pepper spray and batons you have an issue with?
Is there a section on riot control procedures in the policy manual?
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
I plan to respond
Submitted by JT on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 5:14pm.but it is important to know what we are talking about and I don't really want to respond to speculation, or fantasy.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
OPD General Order 1.3.3
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 5:19pm.I'm not concerned with the OPD manual
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 5:41pm.So Gug
Submitted by JT on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 6:42pm.do you have a Washington law you can refer too? And if not Washington law, any case law other than the well worn one you mentioned?
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Washington State law is not the issue.
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 7:18pm.Gug,
Submitted by JT on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 9:47am.I don’t see a violation of the 4th or 8th amendments.
I don’t see how the 4th amendment applies at all.
And the 8th amendment with the application of pepper spray, doesn’t rise to the level of cruel and unusual. Heck the cops have to get sprayed with the stuff as part of their training.
Further it wasn't being applied as a punishment, but as a compliance tool.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Well, when you get appointed to the bench, call me
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 10:05am.Ok, fair enough,
Submitted by JT on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 10:25am.and when you become a climatologist, you can have an opinion on global warming and argue that. That's what your above comment seems to amount to with respect to this discussion.
I'm sure the court will decide. Frankly, this seems to be an area of law that hasn't been tested in court, so I will be interested how it all plays out. And I really don't care how it plays out. If the protestors prevail, then the citizens will get to reap what they sow. And if OPD prevails, cops will be allowed to do their job and not let a few impact the freedom of others.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Fari enough indeed
Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 10:42am.In response to JT's remark ...
Submitted by Sandy M on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 6:43pm.that ... "I haven't heard but one incident [of police using less lethals] the whole time of the protests, and that is when the officers were taking rocks."
First, I have to say that I can't help but wonder how you have managed to miss the undisputed facts of a major local story you are engaged in debating on a public blog. Even OPD Commander Bjornsted openly admitted (in print and TV media) using pepper spray and pepper ball projectiles on multiple occasions -- and even removing protective masks and eye goggles of the protesters being sprayed.
There are plenty of videos and still-images of less lethals, and other forms of excessive force, used on peaceful protesters in numerous independent media sources on the internet and elsewhere, but also in the commercial press. I compiled a strong sampling from both to accompany an article I wrote for the web version of the Works In Progress December issue. If you are interested in seeing for yourself, you can scroll through the 33 photos that run alongside the article and check out the list of video links at the end of the article: http://www.olywip.org/site/page/article/2007/12/01.html.
Sandy,
Submitted by JT on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 6:44pm.pepper spray, and pepper balls are not less lethal they are non-lethal. So if you want, answer the question, when was less lethal used other than when I mentioned?
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Examples please
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 6:58pm.Less lethal weapons were
Submitted by Phil Owen on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 12:16pm.Less lethal weapons were defined in the long section of policy posted by Rob Whitlock. They include certain munitions and tazers, but didn't say anything about pepper spray.
The Canaanite's Call
Tasers are
Submitted by JT on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 12:29pm.are non-lethal too. The less lethal and non-lethal stuff seems to be co-mingled.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
JT, Then what weapons were you referring to
Submitted by Sandy M on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 7:01pm.Not a lot of time but here are two examples of less lethal
Submitted by JT on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 7:06pm.Rubber bullet gun 37mm
Bean bag rounds usually deployed from a shotgun
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
well,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 7:10pm.OPD General Orders
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 10:28pm.thanks Rob
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 10:31pm.browser lock
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 10:36pm.I am using...
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 2:11am.Have you tried the right click...
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 2:49am.More to come,
Submitted by JT on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 7:23pm.got to go for now. I will continue tomorrow. This will be a good and fun topic.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
I've been over this with all of you..
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 7:28pm.Then I apologize, JT, for failing to clarify terminology
Submitted by Sandy M on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 7:56pm.before accusing you of not having the facts.
Somehow it seemed that everyone was talking about the same thing when referencing police policy on "less than" lethal weapons and usage of pepper spray on peaceful protesters.
That said, I agree with Guglielmo that the key question on the matter of excessive force hinges on Constitutional protections, not OPD policy or WA State law. And I agree with JT that this is a good topic and I look forward to hearing more.
[And, just for the record, the fact that y'all are staying with the topic, rather than digressing off on some trivial tangent or overly-personalized off-topic attacks, is what has drawn me into the conversation. I only mention this in response to the oft-asked questions on this blog about why more people don't participate.]
Apology accepted,
Submitted by JT on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 8:43am.in this form of communication, there can be misunderstandings.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Interesting RCW
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 10:54pm.I just found the RCW...
Intentional infliction of emotional distress
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Mon, 01/14/2008 - 11:02pm.RW,
Submitted by JT on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 9:00am.Wow I ask for data and you really came through. I think it is the shotgun approach though, as much of it doesn’t apply. Lets talk about one at a time.
The tort claim you posted about,
“The tort of intentional infliction of emotional distress has four elements: (1) the defendant must act intentionally or recklessly; (2) the defendant's conduct must be extreme and outrageous; and (3) the conduct must be the cause (4) of severe emotional distress.”“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
More relevant material from the OPD operating policy
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 3:01am."When force is applied, officers must be able to articulate how that force was reasonable and how it conformed to the law."
"“Passive resistant” behavior is behavior by a subject that is non-compliant to lawful commands, but that is not physically aggressive or assaultive."
"“Contact controls” are techniques designed to be employed with passively resistant subjects. These controls capitalize on light physical contact to gain control and cooperation."
"Contact controls - Contact controls include guiding, escorting and other lightly physical means of gaining compliance."
"“Active resistant” behavior is behavior by a subject that is non-compliant and that involves the use of physical effort or mechanical assistance to achieve or maintain non-compliance with lawful commands."
"“Compliance controls” are techniques designed to be employed with subjects who display actively resistant behavior. These controls capitalize on physical contact that is intended to neutralize physical or mechanical efforts to gain control and cooperation."
"Compliance controls - Compliance controls include use of personal weapons to affect pain compliance, hair controls, pressure point and counter-joint techniques, oleoresin capsicum (OC) spray and conducted energy weapons."
"Every officer is required by virtue of his/her position as a peace officer to intervene in any situation where he/she reasonably believes another officer is making an unjustifiable arrest, using excessive force or committing any Constitutional violation. When a reasonable opportunity exists for doing so, officers shall intervene in such instances and prevent harm from occurring. The required intervention may take the form of one or both of the following actions: 1) strongly cautioning the other officer(s), or 2) physically restraining the other officer(s), and immediately reporting the incident to the on-duty supervisor without delay."
Below is the ladder of force
Submitted by JT on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 9:21am.Below is the ladder of force for Olympia Police, and then a couple descriptions of resistive behavior.
A. Cooperative controls - Cooperative controls include command presence (color of authority), dialogue/reasoning, verbal direction or non-verbal direction (e.g., patrol vehicle emergency lights/siren).
The resistance the cops got from the protestors was above this level. There were several verbal announcements, which were intentionally ignored by the protestors.
B. Contact controls - Contact controls include guiding, escorting and other lightly physical means of gaining compliance.
Based on what I saw the level of resistance the cops got from the protestors was above this point on the force continuum too.
C. Compliance controls - Compliance controls include use of personal weapons to affect pain compliance, hair controls, pressure point and counter-joint techniques, oleoresin capsicum (OC) spray and conducted energy weapons
WOW! Look at that, pepper spray is the in this level of force, one of the lowest levels
D. Defensive tactics - Defensive tactics include the use of impact weapons, chemical agents, attack defense (i.e., use of personal weapons to punch/kick) and less lethal weaponry aimed at primary or secondary targets [see 1.3.3(III.A.1-2)].
E. Deadly force - Deadly force includes the use of firearms and less lethal weapons intentionally aimed at tertiary targets [see 1.3.3(III.A.3)].
"“Passive resistant” behavior is behavior by a subject that is non-compliant to lawful commands, but that is not physically aggressive or assaultive."
The protestors were not outwardly aggressive on the first “daytime” contact with the protestors, Saturday I think. Clearly they were on the nighttime contact, they were aggressive and assaultive, throwing rocks, etc. But when officers did go hands on that Saturday, I saw pulling away from officers, and tightening up with their interwoven arms, etc. That changes the behavior to Active Resistance, below"“Active resistant” behavior is behavior by a subject that is non-compliant and that involves the use of physical effort or mechanical assistance to achieve or maintain non-compliance with lawful commands."
Active resistant behavior allows for use of compliance tools, one of which is pepper spray.“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
RR,
Submitted by JT on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 9:23am.you complained about the officer(s) that used the pepper ball gun on those who were blocking the Plum St. ramp. Did he shoot them directly or on the ground around them? If it was on the ground around them that likely was to put pepper powder in the air.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
People I've spoken to
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 10:37am.If pepperballs are a compliance tool, how is it an effective one in the scenario of people sitting on the ground chained together? Furthermore, how did people sitting on the ground passively escalate the situation? They obviously weren't being physically threatening by sitting in one spot. I wonder what the police thought was going to happen, if they thought the protesters were going to get up and move, then they were wrong, and misjudged the character of the protesters. Again, peaceably arresting everybody is, in my opinion, the best way to avoid this whole thing. Threaten them with arrest and if they don't comply then arrest them.
Ok RR,
Submitted by JT on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 10:48am.we are talking about two different things here. One the incident you talked about at the start of this thread, the people chained together. That is what I was posting about above.
As far as others being shot in the chest, torso, etc., yes the pepper ball gun is used that way. As far as the reporter getting shot in the face, who knows what happened there. I would guess shooting in the face wouldn't be a first choice, but it could have been a number of things that lead to that, i.e. someone moves at the same time the trigger is pulled, you see what I'm talking about.
I explained how it was effective if they are chained together. Breaking the balls on the ground near them releasing the pepper into the air.
As far as arresting, officers are not required to arrest the protestors. Maybe that is what the protestors wanted, but like the song says, sometimes you don't get what you want.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
I think we're on the same page.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 11:03am.So I'm not here to argue whether what the police did at the port followed protocol or not, I'm simply saying that SO much could have been avoided, and so much time could have been saved had the police just arrested first.
Apparently there is no policy for riot or crowd
Submitted by JT on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 9:24am.control. So in absence of a policy then you need to research industry standards, and dept. training.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
crowd policy
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 8:48pm.That makes the use of chemical weapons to disperse the protesters more understandable.
What a terrible policy!
What an interesting topic.
Submitted by DJW on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 9:07pm.I just know that I'm going to be stepping into it, but here goes.
I have a background in law enforcement and there is something you never do, take your safety for granted. For the sake of the discussion, how does police differentiate from peaceful vs. non-peaceful protestors? From what I witnessed on the many videos the rock throwers, dumpster tossers, and so on were all dressed the same as the peaceful group. The group that was yelling F YOU was dressed the same as the rest of the group. See where I'm going?
Yelling I'm peaceful is not enough. I think when some of the individuals got out of hand it was time for everyone to obey orders so that cooler heads could prevail.
As for violations of the 4th & 8th Amendment, I think that is somewhat of a stretch. I would be interested to see any case law where someone was able to make that argument and win.
well,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 01/15/2008 - 9:27pm.or had simply barricaded
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 4:17am.Wasn't it the protesters who were barricading the street?
And since we're talking about it, does a department the size of Olympia's have the personnel to babysit every college student (and faculty member) in town?
I'm hoping the police department does absolutely nothing next time. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't, so why risk physical injury and - evidently - tax dollars.
Go back to the heyday of protesting and pit the National Guard against the undergraduates.
well,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 11:22am.Damned if you do damend if you don't?
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 11:58am.And I'm sure....
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 7:46pm.Ok, I'll answer directly.Had
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 7:46pm.Ok, I'll answer directly.
This is an unrealistic expectation. An even larger number of people would have been in the street blocking the convoy had the police simply picked people up nicely, dusted them off and gently walked them to City Hall. The convoy might still be sitting at the Port of Olympia waiting to leave if this were the case.
I disagree. It's their job to carry out society's will in as professional a manner as possible. Also, professional does not mean "Policing the Olympia Way" (which is code-speak for "Armed Social Worker). It means striking a balance between respecting one's rights and achieving compliance with the law.
What do you mean? Judging by the video where they're pushing people out of the street and toward the sidewalk, they were barricading the street. Just because they used brute force as a barricade versus a physical object doesn't mean the same end wasn't achieved.
We'll go down that road when - and if - a civil court decides the City of Olympia will need to write a paycheck. By the same token, what if a civil court comes back and said the Olympia Police Department did everything correctly?
Violence escalated by the police and
Submitted by JT on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 12:12pm.baby sitting the police, both comments that are a complete reversal of the facts.
The police were there to "baby sit" the protestors who decided not to obey the law. If they had obeyed the law, no need for the police. But they wanted to send a message so the police had to come "baby sit" the protestors.
The police didn't start any violence. The police are allowed to use means necessary to effect a lawful purpose. The lawful purpose was to keep the roadway open and allow the military equipment to leave the port. The protestors became an unruly body when they realized a fast one was pulled on them. That behavior by the protestors continued to escalate until THE PROTESTORS resorted to violence. You see they have no legal authority to use those means for their purpose. Their purpose is completely illegal in the first place.
So don't try to spin this 180 out from reality. The cause of the VIOLENCE sits squarely and solely in the laps of the protestors.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Wrong...the responsibilty for violence is shared
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 12:30pm.First, how about we all drop crap like "baby sitting." It's bullshit language, don't you agree...at least IF you respect your fellow man. Moving on...
First, police are NOT allowed to use ANY means necessary to effect a lawful purpose.
Second, the vast majority of violence was perpetrated by the police and a lot of it was on passive, non-compliant individuals.
Third, the tactics of the police that night fanned the flames. Clearing the main intersection using pepper spray and battons just as the convoy began pulling out of the other road accomplished nothing but an escalation of violence...again, most of it perpertated by the police. Why they simply didn't block access to that other road is really quite odd.
If the protesters were not there, there would not have been any violence. They SHARE responsibility.
Baby sitting are your words Gug,
Submitted by JT on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 12:47pm.not mine.
I didn't say ANY means. I said necessary means, Necessary has a legal definition, look it up.
The "force" not "violence" used on protestors was to gain compliance for a lawful purpose. The violence used on police was illegal, generated out of illegal actions and used to perpetuate further lawlessness.
No shared responsibility, all owned by the protestors. And clearly the majority of the public agree with me. You know, community standards and all!
I will acknowledge that some different tactics by the police might have worked better, but the violence is ALL protestors.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
While I disagree with the
Submitted by Phil Owen on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 12:33pm.While I disagree with the notion that the "police didn't start any violence" (it may have been state sanctioned, but it was violence nonetheless), I also want to point out that there is a fine line between violence and potential violence.
There was a point when some of the protesters became violent, and as has been mentioned it would be difficult for a police officer to distinguish between the folks being violent and those being peaceful.
Try to imagine walking up to a group of people who, for the most part, are similarly dressed and roughly of a similar age. Some of them may turn violent with you, and some of them may not. You don't have the ability to distinguish between them, and you do really want to keep yourself and your coworkers safe.
Rob argued that violence on the part of protesters was triggered by police violence, and I agree to a certain extent. However, how can the police be sure that some minor incident during a mass arrest won't trigger a crowd that has been otherwise peaceful?
Organizations like F.O.R. have a demonstrated and long standing record as pacifists. I would be horribly outraged if they were treated like the folks at the port were treated. The PMR, however, does not by any means have this same record. If I were a cop, I think I might want a ten foot baton so I don't have to get too close, because the PMR has a demonstrated potential for violence (regardless of the justifications).
At this point, it would be hard to imagine future port protests happening any differently than they have this last time.
The Canaanite's Call
That's BS Phil
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 2:04pm.Drew Hendricks has gone on
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 2:38pm.prove it
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 4:35pm.September, 2007. Works in
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 5:26pm.We might need to use a little of our own violence to stop a lot more of theirs.
At the bottom he's listed with PMR, so if they didn't authorize his comments that's one thing but otherwise he's speaking for them.
He's not speking for PMR here.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 7:43pm.There were apparently some of the peaceful protestors
Submitted by JT on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 12:50pm.that walked their walk. Some protestors were calling the cops names, and generally being nasty and onery. Some in the crowd directed them to straighten up, and for the most part they did, at least for a time.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
The words were TFI's
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 12:53pm.The resistance comes from
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 1:22pm.The resistance of the greater community to consider alternative police methods is reinforced by the lesser community's resistance to admit any wrongdoing, or to at the very lease admit that their actions were in violation of the law.
All of the bickering that people are doing over definitions is annoying and deflects from the discussion.
Most people who were blocking the street
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 1:35pm.admit they were breaking the law. Given that, then why the resistance to alternative police methods? Sounds now like you are just annoyed at the "hobbyists?" That's not a good starting point for a serious conversation about alternatives to violence. I and many others have been willing to acknowledge the culpability of the protesters. How about giving an inch on your side instead of just digging in your heels.
JT,
Not sure why you conclude that I think all violence is equal. I only said that force IS violence. Like force, violence is a continuum. As for legality, it has nothing to do with whether or not I like the violence. It has to do with my views of the law. And as for necessity, it is never sufficient to trump the constitution.
Probably need to discuss across the table rather than here,
Submitted by JT on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 1:41pm.but I don't have much to give to your side other than what I said above, other tactics for some things might have yielded better results.
So what part of the constitution do you believe was abrogated?
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
I think one could make a case that there were some violations of
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 1:57pm.Jim I'll give you the inch
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 1:49pm.If we were to sift through all the previous posts on the subject we'd see plenty of examples.
The resistance you are getting
Submitted by JT on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 1:18pm.is to the framing of the incident. The police were reactionary, not pro-active in this event. The protestors drove the reaction from the police at every step.
The difference for me with force vs violence is one is lawful, the other is unlawful. Maybe I should use assaultive to describe the protestors and force for the cops. I will do that since you think all violence is equal.
If the necessary force used meets the elements of the definition of Necessary, then it is legal.
Just because the protestors and their sympathisers didn't like the force, doesn't make it illegal.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Excessive Use of Force
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 6:13pm.Protesters occupied roadways in an effort to: A) halt an unlawful military action, and B) to express political speech.
While blocking roadways, the protesters were attempting to stop a war that many allege to be wrongful. In fact to wage an aggressive war is most heinous and wrongful action possible (according to international rules).
Additionally, the protesters' blockades may have been protected by the first amendment because they were an attempt to petition for redress of grievances (first amendment - free speech).
Most importantly, the protesters, in many if not all of the various situations in which the pepper spray was dispersed, were passively resisting
That's my argument.
Sorry Rob
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 6:19pm.A) halt an unlawful military
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 01/16/2008 - 7:35pm.Which U.S. court handed down this decision?
Unless there's clear case law indicating that blocking a military convoy is protected by the constitution under the First Amendment, it's not the job of the local police department to make that decision on the fly.