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Submitted by Sandy M on Tue, 11/20/2007 - 11:18pm.
Earlier today an email discussion was widely posted on several listservs featuring comments exchanged between Olympia Mayor Mark Foutch and a citizen of Olympia in which the Mayor attributed certain comments to me which were grossly inaccurate. In a subsequent letter to him I allowed for the possibility that he may not have actually written that message. But at tonight's City Council meeting he verified that he did make this reference and apologized for misrepresenting me. The following is the letter I sent to the Mayor shortly before tonight's meeting: Dear Mayor Foutch, I am very concerned about a forwarded message I just received in which you apparently reference a supposed email from me. If indeed you wrote this, your paraphrasing of this alleged email greatly concerns me since it does not accurately represent anything I have or would ever intend to say on the subject. The message attributed to you includes this statement: I saw an Email from Sandy Mayes saying that the older members of OPMR [OlyPMR] had advocated not actively blocking the streets or otherwise breaking the law but they were outvoted by the younger more militant members. My response: I did initially articulate the position that opposing shipments coming back from the war might present a challenging message for those of us resisting that war. At an OlyPMR meeting on Sun 11/4, there was a vote to oppose and resist the shipment coming back to Ft. Lewis through the Port of Olympia by attempting to contain the military equipment on the port quay. Although I voted against that proposal, within less than 24 hours I had completely come around to wholeheartedly embrace the idea. I am glad the vote went the way it did; it was absolutely the right call. As I have since stated very publicly and repeatedly, in the press and elsewhere: The combat vehicles being shipped through our town were used to invade and destroy a sovereign nation, devastating the lives of millions of Iraqis and thousands of Americans. The reason we are blocking them now is because we do not want these war machines to ever be used for this purpose again. At NO POINT have I spoken against blocking streets or "breaking laws" as a tactic. Nor would I make a statement to that effect about “older” members of OlyPMR in general. Quite the opposite in fact since many of us have engaged in civil disobedience on multiple occasions. As you may know, I was arrested on May 24, 2006 for blocking a convoy of Strykers on Marine Drive in Olympia. As well, I was arrested on March 11 of this year for climbing over a police barricade in an attempt to stop another shipment of Strykers headed for Iraq through the Port of Tacoma. Earlier this year, prior to the protests at the Port of Tacoma, when it was thought that the 4th Stryker Brigade might instead come through Olympia, I wrote an article published in the Feb issue of Works In Progress entitled, “Next time, we'll be ready for them: Port Militarization Resistance returns to defend the Port of Olympia.” In this article, I put out a call-to-action advocating human blockades as the primary tactic in opposing and resisting the use of our port in executing war and occupation. (This article can be found on the Works In Progress website at http://www.olywip.org/site/page/article/2007/02/01.html .) The language of that article may be familiar to you since I used it in public testimony at Olympia City Council meetings and Port Commission meetings advising public officials of what was likely to happen if further war shipments were to come through Olympia. Here are a few excerpts from that article: “I believe that the Olympia peace movement is now ripe for mass actions of civil disobedience. Many people who, for years, have protested the war and the use of our port in its execution -- through vigils, marches, letters, op-eds, teach-ins, public testimony and forums -- are fed up. And people who have never engaged in any form of protest are now ready to act. People are tired of being ignored by politicians and the media and are ready to take their actions to a higher level. For many, military convoys returning to Olympia would provide the perfect opportunity for CD and at a comparatively low personal cost. [This statement obviously preceded the violent OPD tactics which have resulted in much higher costs to protesters in the recent campaign.] ... the weapons shipments through the Port of Olympia, and the use of our public property to prolong and supply the war in Iraq have made Thurston County and its citizens complicit in these crimes. We must refuse to be complicit any longer. Just as soldiers have a responsibility to disobey unlawful orders, civilians also have a duty to refuse to cooperate. ... The ripple effects of ordinary people in a community coming together in a coordinated act of shared liberation and empowerment, facing down the US corporate military state, would be immeasurable. Solutions to the many deep structural problems facing our world today begin with acts like this.” As for the rest of the statement attributed to you, the phrase “more militant” is not language I recall ever using in writing or in conversation in reference to any members of the peace movement. I really don't break things down that way. Furthermore, when I was asked by an Olympian reporter if the decision to oppose the shipment coming in from Iraq was largely due to the votes of newer and younger people present at the Nov. 4 meeting, I answered, “Yes, I would say that's true. And I'm very glad they did.” If indeed you did make the statement attributed to you in the message forwarded here, it reflects one of 2 possible problems: 1) Either you have grossly misrepresented an email message I actually sent, or In either case, I would appreciate it if you would forward that email to me so I can see where this problem originated. And since the statement seriously misrepresents, in fact, libels me, I am going to ask you to please retract it. Again, this is assuming it actually came from you, which obviously it may not have. If an email message can be falsely attributed to me, then the same can happen to you. Since the email exchange forwarded here has been distributed far and wide on many listservs I would like to clear up the misstatements contained within as quickly as possible. I look forward to a swift reply. Sincerely, Sandy Mayes
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Gosh
Submitted by Norm on Tue, 11/20/2007 - 11:25pm.Norm, the day you make a
Submitted by Sandy M on Tue, 11/20/2007 - 11:34pm.Fair enough
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 11/21/2007 - 12:12am.Sandy, the day you can voice your dissent without adding to your arrest record, or inciting a riot, I will offer you a substantive comment. There, now we have a common connection, maybe we can both work toward that goal. Until then, I can't help but chuckle when you display your arrest record as if it were a merit badge that you earned in camp. The person I see down at the port is just not the person I see outside of the port.
Norm, you should do a little research before you spout off
Submitted by jlw on Wed, 11/21/2007 - 1:23am.Peace became pizza. -- Guglielmo
You know what I mean Janet
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 11/21/2007 - 10:09am.You should work a little harder to make accurate statements
Submitted by jlw on Wed, 11/21/2007 - 3:47pm.Peace became pizza. -- Guglielmo
and she claimed that
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 11/21/2007 - 3:53pm.I'm not punishing anyone.
Submitted by jlw on Wed, 11/21/2007 - 4:29pm.Peace became pizza. -- Guglielmo
I'm done arguing.
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 11/21/2007 - 5:42pm.You have yet to BEGIN arguing, Norm
Submitted by DrewHendricks on Wed, 11/21/2007 - 8:20pm.Sandy wrote that she was not opposed to breaking laws, and cited two of the most pertinent examples she could cite: her own arrests. It was not bragging, or inflating, or showing off; it was germane, direct, and closely related to the argument she made.
You, on the other hand, sniped. And she called you on it.
Pay attention Drew
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 11/21/2007 - 9:22pm.The poster above me, said she was arguing with me. WITH me, which entails that I'm involved in the arguing.
Call it whatever you want, it was meant to be a jab for someone that almost seems proud (otherwise why post it? She could have made her point without displaying that) of her prior arrests. She didn't exactly deny it, now did she?
OH NO! Don't look now Drew, the tape fell of your phone, I think the government is watching your every move, quick run and tape your phone back up!
jeez...
Submitted by DrewHendricks on Thu, 11/22/2007 - 1:43am.The tape on my phone's lens fell off a long time ago, and now I just handle that issue with my finger or with my pocket. (I hold the phone by that lens when it is out of the pocket and keep it in a light tight pocket when not in use. Sometimes I lay it face down.)
Oh, and yes - we do have good evidence that we're being followed (many PMR organizers have even seen Oly PD folks going through their trash). I've even met some new "street people" who decorate their clothes in interesting ways, and show up at certain meetings at specific times (some of which are not posted elsewhere, and could ONLY be gleaned from close surveillance or cell call listening.)
Way to be supportive, Norm. Just imagine if it happened to you every time you went out to Church...
You and I just disagree
Submitted by Norm on Thu, 11/22/2007 - 1:21pm.Norm,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 11/21/2007 - 12:24pm.Um
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 11/21/2007 - 12:42pm.I don't know any instances
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 11/21/2007 - 12:56pm.You seem to have a good grasp of this
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 11/21/2007 - 1:04pm.beyond what is put into history books, I'm not well versed in "civil disobedience" so would you mind letting me know in which instances it has not worked as well as the times it has?
Civil disobediance
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 11/21/2007 - 1:40pm.What was the name of that
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 11/21/2007 - 3:22pm.They were arrested by officials posing as an interview team
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 11/21/2007 - 4:26pm.I mentioned them because you were asking for an example of less effective civil disobedience. One could argue, however, that their efforts have eductated some and inspired others to seek an end to the IRS. Failure? Every long journy...
Now, to be fair, you should answer Rob's question about rights that have been gained without the befefit of civil disobendience.
I'm not up for a history investigation
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 11/21/2007 - 5:45pm.Ah, a Tory in our midst! Where's the tar! Where's the feathers!
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 11/21/2007 - 6:08pm.I'm not a beer drinker
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 11/21/2007 - 7:18pm.Another Frederick Doublas quotation
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 11/21/2007 - 12:37pm.Who is Mr. Doublas?
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 11/21/2007 - 12:44pm.yeah, who needs history norm.
Submitted by Carmella on Wed, 11/21/2007 - 7:12pm.Norm, I think a lot of people are putting a lot of time and energy into teaching you about civil disobedience. For you to say that you don't want to delve into an historical investigation doesn't make any sense because you are basically prodding other people to do it for you. I bet you will say that you are not doing that. But you have to understand that when you continuously come back to the issue of law-breaking in this way, you are just asking for clarification.
Why do you have this intense devotion to traffic laws? Surely it is not because you really care about traffic that much. I think that you are using this claim about criminality in order to legitimize your claims. here is a comment i wrote to you earlier that i am not sure if you saw:
I think most adults know that just because something is legal does not make it just or humane. Just because pepper spray, tear gas, and concussion grenades are legal does not make them ethical. So let's not confuse these conversations. If you think police violence is justified in this situation then that's one thing. But stating that this kind of violence is legal does not change the fact that it is violence and in my opinion, morally wrong.
Dear God
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 11/21/2007 - 7:30pm.This isn't the first time that this amount of energy has been put into teaching me about civil disobedience. I could go through and name off the top of my head all of the rights that have come about after civil disobedience, and then go to wikipedia and find a few more, but why should I? Particularly at this stage of history, I think civil disobedience is wrong. It is also criminal. If you can refute this, let me know, but last I checked breaking the law is the point. Which makes people who participate criminals. I'm not denying anything, the fact that folks come back to "clarify" is a little funny at best. Maybe they feel they can convince me to change my mind on the subject.
I have an intense devotion to laws in general, not just traffic. You should hear me talk about folks who indulge in recreational drug use.
Yes, I saw what you wrote, I'm not sure if I responded to it or not. I think I may have intentionally left it alone. I think violence was justified given the situation. I disagree with your opinion, and feel that violence is morally wrong. I think violence is needed and at times quite healthy.
Now that we've cleared that up, I'm about done. All I really wanted to express in this thread was my disgust for someone who seemed to be bragging about her past arrests. Since this has been established I will bid you a good evening Carmella.
I've said it before,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 11/21/2007 - 10:13pm.Everytime I read that
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 11/21/2007 - 11:59pm.If that is the case
Submitted by Carmella on Thu, 11/22/2007 - 12:24am.You are reading too much into this.
Submitted by Norm on Thu, 11/22/2007 - 12:27am.Of course norm, you are the
Submitted by Carmella on Thu, 11/22/2007 - 12:31am.lol
Submitted by Norm on Thu, 11/22/2007 - 12:51am.