I wanted to add in this thread that you're absolutely right about why rallies are held.

Being sympathetic to, let alone demonstrating for, the Nazi party in Europe is a huge no-no (and in some cases illegal). Here in the US they're simply a lot of angry, white males practicing militia tactics in Idaho and Montana. As an organization they pose virtually no threat to your way of life.

If there's ever been a political party that's been pretty well stamped out, at least in any serious circles, it's the Nazi party.

The only national stage you see them on now is The History Channel and The Producers.

Quite a few of us did not yell and jeer. Quite a few of us used the day to talk strategy, peacekeeping, community relations, and what we can do next time.

I believe that debriefing, especially after a hastily organized event such as this one, is just fine. I believe it is okay for kudos shared, for unedited emotional expression amongst ones peers. This was an intense day for many of us.

If I can get anything across about Sunday, is that we are a diverse group of people. We did NOT all yell and jeer at our visitors. And those that did may very well have reasons worthy of discussion. I may disagree but hopefully at some point I'd be willing to listen.

Yes, the NSM has the right to free speech. So do we.

Me, I won't accept any shame.

I especially wanted Dave Lynn's photos out because those are people. Human beings in swastikas. Human beings with human frailities and confusions and strengths and all the rest.

Some high points for me yesterday were standing watch for a church, meeting some of the congregation, all the spontaneous conversations that I took part in over the day, the wonderful meeting down at the park, and passing on thanks to the local cops.

I can't really say there was much besides a rising tide of discordant screaming. There were a few who clearly stated their opposition without resorting to threats and demeaning comments. While I wouldn't trade our presence at the "rally" for a day at home, indifferent to their forceful invasion of our city, I would trade the screaming we did for something a little more...tasteful. I'm pretty sure everyone knows "We Shall Overcome" or "Ain't Gonna Let Nobody Turn Me Around". We could've opposed them in violent silence rather than noise. We could've simply laughed on cue from Peter Bohmer (who, I assume was one of the key organizers), ridiculing their positions without demeaning them as humans. I'd rather not add to their reasons for holding on to stupid and divisive mindsets.

i was not among those who yelled "die nazi scum" or "go to hell". i did yell "fuck off" and "go home", which i have no problem with. but one thing you need to understand is that there is a long tradition in the punk rock community of anti-racist and anti-fascist action and organizing. "die nazi scum" is a pretty popular and well known punk-rock slogan. so it may offend your sensibilities, but when nazis show up, there are going to be some people who show up and yell things like that (usually young punk kids). as young punk kids grow up they tend to develop more of a political analysis and use more considered responses. but these punk kids are part of the olympia community. they have a right to demonstrate too. they weren't necessarily there as a response to organizing from the peace and justice movement. the peace and justice movement does not own the patent on demonstrating in olympia. quite a bit of other organizing and outreach went on as well, which contributed to the large turnout. If you want to distance yourself from punk kids who yell "die nazi scum" then do so. but expect to see them next time the nazis show up in our town, because we all live in olympia together.

"die nazi scum" may be harsh and it is dehumanizing, which is why i don't use it. but if you think saying "fuck off and go home" is on the same level as advocating genocide and racial hatred, then you are trivializing the nazis' sinister agenda. and that's a dangerous thing to do.

and just to clarify, sophielou, nobody threw anything except a handful of glitter.

FRO 98.5 FM www.frolympia.org

Hey, I like your words and sentiments. The world would be a better place without hate groups like the nazis. But the fact is that they exist. And there's a reason too.

I think part of the reason they behave like they do is because they were raised in hostile, violent and abusive environments - so partly it has to do with the fact that it's all they know.

The peace movement had an opportunity to demonstrate something different to them. Instead, the hierarchy took it upon itself to stifle debate and use the nazi's appearance as an opportunity to throw some vile frustration pies.

Waste of time and energy in my mind. I also agree: I think the nazi's got what they came for. The question now is, what do we take from this episode?

rob, don't blame the "peace movement hierarchy". i for one did not go to this event because of or do anything i did as a result of any action by any "peace movement hierarchy" or any hierarchy for that matter. i saw scores of people i know that i could say much the same for. many of us are in fact anti-authoritarian, and therefore anti-hiercarchy. stop trying to give the peace movement all the credit anyway!

and as for your glitter/fecal matter remark, give me a break!!! those drab nazi outfits needed some fairy dust! your comment betrays a lack of humor or appreciation for theatrics. besides, i think the glitter was supposed to be in lieu of rocks, not shit.

From the OMJP listserve:

Olympians for PEACE

I wasn't writing to antagonize, just pointing out what stood out for me. Behaving violently at a 'nonviolent' event casts a shadow upon it. http://www.actupny.org/documents/CDdocuments/NV%20Training.html

First, nonviolence is resistance to evil and oppression. It is a human way to fight.

Second, it does not seek to defeat or humiliate the opponent, but to win his/ her friendship and understanding.

Third, the nonviolent method is an attack on the forces of evil rather than against persons doing the evil. It seeks to defeat the evil and not the persons doing the evil and injustice.

Fourth, it is the willingness to accept suffering without retaliation.

Fifth, a nonviolent resister avoids both external physical and internal spiritual violence- not only refuses to shoot, but also to hate, an opponent. The ethic of real love is at the center of nonviolence.

Sixth, the believer in nonviolence has a deep faith in the future and the forces in the universe are seen to be on the side of justice.

okay, i am going to say this one more time, as clearly as i can, then i'm done with this thread.

1. while the peace community did alot of great organizing for their nonviolent response to the nazi rally, they were not the only ones organizing, and some participants at the event had been outreached to by other channels.

2. not everyone who showed up to confront the nazis was responding to the peace movement's call for a "nonviolent event".

3. i for one, and probably others at the anti-fascist rally, are not committed to the principles of nonviolence. you don't have to educate me about what those principles are -- i have been an activist for 12 years, have engaged in nonviolent campaigns (in which i am willing to adopt nonviolent tactics within the context of the campaign), and have received nonviolence trainings. but i am not committed to the principles of nonviolence:

specifically:

"it does not seek to defeat or humiliate the opponent, but to win his/ her friendship and understanding."

fine in some contexts, but there are times in which i will seek to defeat my enemy by any means necessary, in defense of my safety or the safety of loved ones or my community.

"the nonviolent method is an attack on the forces of evil rather than against persons doing the evil. It seeks to defeat the evil and not the persons doing the evil and injustice."

again, in some contexts i can see this approach as beneficial. but i am going to violently attack anybody who attempts to do me bodily harm, and therefore seek to defeat that person.

"it is the willingness to accept suffering without retaliation."

never, ever ever ever ever will i adopt this tenet.

"a nonviolent resister avoids both external physical and internal spiritual violence- not only refuses to shoot, but also to hate, an opponent. The ethic of real love is at the center of nonviolence."

sure, i will avoid physical violence -- i don't go seeking it. but if someone else brings it upon me, don't expect me to turn the other cheek. i can resist someone, even to the death, without ever hating or dehumanizing them. its just a matter of self-preservation and self-defense.

in the context of the nazi rally, i didn't seek to inflict physical violence on those people. i'm sure yelling at them qualifies as "internal spiritual violence" but i don't have any regrets or shame about inflicting it upon those particular individuals.

"the believer in nonviolence has a deep faith in the future and the forces in the universe are seen to be on the side of justice."

i don't believe in this. i hope that its true, but i don't believe things on faith, and i don't have any evidence that the "forces of the universe" are on the side of justice or on the side of anything for that matter.

so, i am sure there are others like me, and we may even show up where a "nonviolent event" has been billed. the nonviolent people can choose to dissociate from me, so be it. i hope that we can build solidarity, and i have respect for nonviolent resistance, but i am not interested in having people try to righteously impose their beliefs, faith or conditions of protest on me.

dj mega