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Not Art

Submitted by w1r3d1 on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 10:07am.

Seems that those who want more free walls are not in conversation with those that don't. The recent vandalism of several buildings Downtown does not reinforce the idea that this is art. Nor does it compel me to support the idea of more free walls Downtown. If Urban art is your thing thats great but vandalism at this level is disgusting and more importantly costly.

The building shown was just painted two weeks ago.

So what is your take on the increased level of tagging and graffiti Downtown. Is it important to have this high level of "Art" in our community or is it another eyesore created to boost the ego of those who do the work?

w1r3d1's blog

pan right!

Submitted by enpen on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 10:33am.

Maybe it's a political thing...although, I never expected the art to get better as it moved from left to right.

My take on the increased level of graffiti (is it actually on the increase, or is the perception of it on the increase?): The urban art movement is in the process of exploding. Legions of artists throughout the world are choosing the freedom of expression inherent in choosing this medium rather than relying upon benefactors and their associated controls. As our city is heavily populated by artists, the explosion is bound to manifest here. We can work with it and reap the benefits, or struggle against it and mire ourselves in the associated costs of our "criminal justice system."

Increasing in size and

Submitted by w1r3d1 on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 11:11am.

Increasing in size and location. The problem I'm sure that vandalism on our storefronts counts as art. If the front of your home was vandalized in this manner is it art?

Who is talking about

Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 11:13am.

storefronts?

I am.....Did yu miss

Submitted by w1r3d1 on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 11:57am.

I am.....Did yu miss something?

That's why business owners

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 11:15am.

That's why business owners should be loading their shotguns with rock salt. Bloody up some punk asses and see if they get an attitude adjustment.

It's my understanding that Michael Fay never vandalized a car in Singapore again after they striped him good.

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

I wish it were that easy...I

Submitted by Norm on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 11:25am.

I wish it were that easy...I long for the good ol' days.

Perhaps you would prefer

Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 11:34am.

rubber bullets.

Nyah, not environmentally

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 11:37am.

Nyah, not environmentally sound. Baseball bats would be fine however.

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

I think the pepper-ball guns

Submitted by Norm on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 11:43am.

I think the pepper-ball guns are better myself. Of course if they are wearing their masks you could always revert to the rubber bullets.

If the area is fenced, a

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 11:45am.

If the area is fenced, a couple man-eating rottweilers would be a good investment.

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

You are touched in the head.

Submitted by noradarno on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 11:45am.

This isn't Singapore, nor is it the old west. Get a clue, you can't preach law and order for one crime, and advocate vigualanty behavior. For someone concerned about the business owner, or the private citizen, you certainly act like you are for behavior that would in turn put the honest people behind bars, or face serious litigation.

Says the guy who spraypaints

Submitted by Norm on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 11:50am.

Says the guy who spraypaints things.

No kidding. Besides, the

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 11:53am.

No kidding. Besides, the laws of self-defence apply to protection of property as well as human life. True, I can't gun down someone because they're painting my wall but I can legally fend them off.

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

You can't club someone with a baseball bat

Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:08pm.

because they are spraying paint on your fence. Since a baseball bat would be considered a deadly weapon, the person you are attacking must be committing a felony against you or your property.

So don't use a baseball bat.

Submitted by Norm on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:10pm.

So don't use a baseball bat. Just rough them up a bit and then spray them down with their own can. No weapon involved.

But then the spray paint is

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:12pm.

But then the spray paint is suddenly toxic and dangerous. They'll have their cake and paint it too.

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

I think that's only if

Submitted by Norm on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:16pm.

I think that's only if inhaled or ingested. Lots of other spots around the body to paint.

Aw Norm, don't do this,

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:20pm.

Aw Norm, don't do this, you're making me play Devil's Advocate. Remember Goldfinger? Some lawyer does, I'm sure.

Say, I have an idea. Next time we're at the Broho together let's paint each others' pints.

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

They proved that to be a

Submitted by Norm on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:24pm.

They proved that to be a myth on mythbusters :)

Yeah, but lawyers like to

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:27pm.

Yeah, but lawyers like to twist these things around and all they have to do is get twelve people who weren't smart enough to escape jury duty to believe it.

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

Is someone preventing that from happening?

Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:13pm.

Seems that ploicy is already in place then. So now we can move on.

Well, yeah, I know that.

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:11pm.

Well, yeah, I know that. That's why I also have the garden hose which I use first. The bat's for when the artist thinks about rushing me.

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

(No subject)

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:11pm.

Officer.....but I thought.....

Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 1:34pm.

Well, it might have been the paint fumes, but they LOOKED like a baseball.

http://thurstonblog.blogspot.com/

Norm...

Submitted by noradarno on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:21pm.

Can you point out where I have destroyed public or private property in Olympia, where I have "spray painted" anything that is not on a designated space? You would be hard pressed. As I said to you before, my project is not about paint, the overwhelming majority of it 99.9 percent over five years doesn't even involve paint. but you have to over simplify things, to try and make a zing. A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. Point is, I don't advocate for breaking the law, so I certainly don't advocate for what MH says. But go ahead, try to oversimplify things so they make sense in your own little world.

I think Norm and I don't

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:24pm.

I think Norm and I don't have any problem with the artists who only work with what they own or have permission to use. Personally I like a lot of the artwork I see downtown. But even my most favorite pieces would be vandalism if the owner hadn't given permission.

All my energy in this thread is directed only at the illegal artists, and their supporters.

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

So, can you honestly say,

Submitted by Norm on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:25pm.

So, can you honestly say, that you have never spray painted something illegaly? Even if you haven't (which I doubt) that does not mean that you don't advocate for it being legal to spraypaint anything and everything.

So what would you suggest for punishment for people caught spraypainting on anothers property?

The law

Submitted by noradarno on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:33pm.

Listen, the people who do this know the law, and if they are caught then I honestly say let the law take care of them. It is part of the culture. And I can honestly say that in Olympia I have not spraypainted anything that was in an illeagal sport. Spray painting, is not my medium of choice.

anything and everything

Submitted by noradarno on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:38pm.

Before you assume I advocate for anything and everything being covered with street art...

Perhaps you should take a look at my blog www.timothyradar.com look at the older posts.

You will note that the birds project is about destruction of natural envirnoments, urban plight, and re-birth after 9-11. the project began in nyc.

Or how about the bad art, where I took stickers and made "bad tags, and images" and put them in common graffiti places to highlight how destructive bad "street art" is to the discourse of the movement.

Or perhaps Another Image Is Possible that highlights corporate graffiti, and its abundant occupation of the public eye in urban areas.

Before you comment on what I do, perhaps you should educate yourself, because you are making wild asumptions, and really do not know what you are talking about.

I'll take a look tonight.

Submitted by Norm on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:51pm.

I'll take a look tonight.

This isn't Singapore. It's

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 11:55am.

This isn't Singapore. It's not the Old West. And it's also not Your Wall, Sign, Dumpster, etc.

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

Here's an interesting

Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 10:47am.

point of view. I like the idea of the public grading the work with their own sets of stencils.

Free Walls

Submitted by noradarno on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 11:03am.

Vandalism is going to exist whether you like it or not. I has existed since pre-history, it is frozen in time on the walls of Pompeii, and it has been accepted in academic and art institutions around the world as a legitimate form of art and communication.

What communities can do to curb "mindless vandalism" is be proactive in providing spaces for this sort of public art to florish. This will be a place for street artists to practice, in a safe environment... Rather than working where ever they feel. In towns with more than one place to practice street art there is a sense of pride, a lot of street artists talk among each other and respect private property as they want to produce a positive image of the culture.

However, there is a whole other culture of tagging that, no matter what you do, will always exist, and will never follow any rules or laws. Be that as it may, graffiti culture has experience exponential growth over the last decade, there are even video games about it... So a lot more people are doing it now days.

It is a catch 22. If you provide more free walls, there will be more thought out, good pieces of art. Some artists may not do so much "llegal work"... However, this will not stop the vandals.

some older figures

Submitted by enpen on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 10:59am.

From Craig Castleman's Getting Up: "In 1970 the MTA's graffiti-cleaning costs were estimated to be $300,000; in 1971, $600,000; in 1972, $1.3 million; and in 1973, $2.7 million".

Static rigidity is costly. Change is the only constant and the more we fight it the less we're able to see the advantages of accepting it.

Too old

Submitted by noradarno on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 11:05am.

this is also before they made trains that had no stick surfaces. now to get something up, it has to go on the inside, or etched on the window. just saying.

'tis true

Submitted by enpen on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 11:17am.

Passing off the buck, I believe it's called. A natural progression from impossible to burn subway trains to painting train cars?

The figures above are old and don't account for how much the MTA spent switching over their cars to the new no stick surface cars either. Now all of the graffiti has moved to walls and buildings and trains. It's the shell game, I guess.

I'm going to start making a blog entry

Submitted by chaney on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 11:47am.

every time I pass an ex-thicket being "developed."

You guys can't really believe the amount of vitriol you're spewing at street artists is proportionate to the effect it's having on our city, can you? I mean, a new coat of paint? It sucks for that day, but in the long run, who gives a shit?

Can I start posting about shooting construction workers and businessmen with rock salt shotguns too? Maybe if I bloodied up their punk asses they'd stop covering our mother with concrete and poisoning our water. Gosh, would that be constructive.

I'll tell you what Chaney,

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:00pm.

I'll tell you what Chaney, if some construction worker comes to your private thicket and starts developing without your permission I'll support your right to protect what's yours. Also, if a new coat of paint is really no big deal then how about you purchase some paint and donate it to affected owners? Just because something's ugly in your eyes doesn't give you the right to vandalize it if it doesn't belong to you.

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

It's not about ugliness at all.

Submitted by chaney on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:33pm.

It's about the fact that you can't own a thicket and you can't own land. It precedes us. We didn't produce it. We can't own it any more than we can own our mother and father. Not, that is, without at some point using brute force to lay claim to it, which is exactly how every bit of land in human history has been acquired. So really, what's to stop me from walking onto a construction site and shooting everybody in the head?

Morality, that's bloody what. That's what laws originate from and that's what they must be judged against. And lawful or not, what you're suggesting is immoral and disgusting, and way beyond the level of tagging a god damn building. (And my point was that the sprawling development all over town, in terms of destructive power, is also way beyond the level of tagging a god damn building.) It's also got all sorts of precedent in the history of our species. Congratulations.

The law, and landowners,

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:48pm.

The law, and landowners, would beg to differ about whether or not we can own land. It's usually those who don't own any who cry the loudest over it.

When I was a landowner I purchased it through an agent from the previous owner; no brute force involved. Same with all the property my folks ever owned.

Buying property, and shooting up a construction site, isn't even apples to oranges it goes beyond that.

Defence of property is not immoral, and if it seems disgusting to you I must wonder why you take it personally. Could it be that you're one of these vandals, and you don't want anything to happen to you?

I noticed you said nothing about my suggestion you buy paint for affected owners, since apparently it's not that big a deal.

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

Actually Merwyn

Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:59pm.

when you were a landowner, your property rights were very much enforced by brute force. If I had showed up and started to build a house, I'm almost certain I would expect a visit from the brutes from the local constabulary.

But it wasn't acquired

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 2:23pm.

But it wasn't acquired through brute force, only your example (encroachment) involved unlawful action.

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

That buying and selling was made possible by brute force.

Submitted by chaney on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 1:05pm.

Unless your memory goes blank a few hundred years back. I would compare shooting up a construction site to systematically taking land from the Indians, which sure seems like a couple of apples to me... There can be no individual land ownership without depriving someone else of a natural resource which you, ultimately, had no more right to than they.

"It's usually those who don't own any who cry the loudest over it."
Indeed it is! Why might that be?

And no, I don't paint. I prefer music, which is much easier to share outdoors. And I'll buy paint for affected owners when they pay to clean up the Puget Sound.

Might makes right. We took

Submitted by Norm on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 1:26pm.

Might makes right. We took the land by force, it happend centuries ago, I don't really care about it at this point. Our society now decides if someone can have the right to property, and it happens all the time. When you have the ability to come and take away people's land because it deprives someone else of a natural resource, then we can talk about it. Until then you still are on the losing end.

Get over yourself. The past

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 2:25pm.

Get over yourself. The past is the past and I had nothing to do with any genocide. I've only been alive 35 years, not 500.

And I'll buy paint for affected owners when they pay to clean up the Puget Sound.

Nice way to absolve yourself. You're not worthy of my time or respect.

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

To get the cotton out of your ears

Submitted by chaney on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 2:35pm.

I never suggested you had anything to do with any genicide. I suggested the concept of ownership did.

Of what, again, am I absolving myself? Sympathy with people you'd like to shoot?

So really, what's to stop me

Submitted by Norm on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:49pm.

So really, what's to stop me from walking onto a construction site and shooting everybody in the head?

Society. You would go to prison and more than likely die by hanging or lethal injection. If you want to do that go ahead, but realize that society does not agree with your interpretation of things. People own land, trees, buildings, and have for a very long time, and will continue to do so for a very long time.

You, by your way of thinking, are an outsider. your idea of "morality" is not what governs us. You lose.

It actually does govern you

Submitted by chaney on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 1:13pm.

Whether you like it or not, the decisions other people make about what they do with their land are affecting you every day. There is no higher government than the planet itself. It's called the law of sustainable human activity. You can choose to recognize it or not, you just can't make the wrong choice forever.

And no, it would not be society preventing me from shooting another person, it would be my own intuitive sense of right and wrong, of sympathy and fairness. That would be the same faculty that informs me that a stranger's body is not worth harming to preserve my access to money.

You can choose to live and

Submitted by Norm on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 1:24pm.

You can choose to live and believe that, but I think you are still on the outskirts here. I will be dead long before the Earth is no longer able to sustain human life. So how exactly is that governing me? I could spray down my yard with used motor oil and water my plants with gasoline and I'll still die of old age.

Well, whatever you choose, society dictates the rules. If you wish to use your own self-control, that's great, some folks aren't as good at it though apparently.

You can also spray down your yard with a bunch of poison

Submitted by chaney on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 2:06pm.

and soonafter die of cancer. Or other people could do the same, with or without your approval, and you could die of cancer as a result. Like my mom, for example. Or you could be reincarnated as your great grandson and then learn what it's like to live without clean drinking water...

In a democratic society, personal morality is the meter against which the society and its laws are judged, period. The question is whether we have a democratic society, or a society in which, as you said, might (ahem, wealth) makes right. If you can find an instance in which private ownership of land was put before the people (particularly after the point at which all land had been claimed) I'd love to hear about it.

Again, when you can take

Submitted by Norm on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 2:27pm.

Again, when you can take away my home because you feel society has a right to it, let me know, I'm not doing the legwork here. Last time I checked you had to have a pretty strong reason to take it, or give a payoff. I'll wait here for ya.

Exactly

Submitted by chaney on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 2:47pm.

I'm not arguing that ownership will end, or that there is a happy fun solution for all these problems. But I'm not exactly hearing the justification for rampant environmental destruction or the domination of our society by the wealthy, either. I'm hearing, "this is the way it is, and I like to punish people when they make me mad." The point is: Ownership is causing problems. You cannot solve those problems without dealing with the root cause. I'm not seeing much interest in solving anything, though.

I will assume the calls for violence are tongue in cheek

Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 11:51am.

but they remain, nonetheless, unappreciated. If they are serious, then your suggestions are disturbing.

They're pretty disturbing...

Submitted by Rick on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 11:57am.

...even if they are tongue-in-cheek.

When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow

Just as disturbing as this

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:06pm.

Just as disturbing as this attitude that "Street Artists" should have the right to apply their "works" wherever they want, and that owners should just grin and appreciate it.

I promise everyone, I don't own much but if someone decided they've anticipated a vision and wanted to pretty my car up the end result for them will be ugly. When I finally have a house again in a couple years the same applies to that.

Why is it so goddamned hard for artists to use the walls they have available, and/or purchase their own canvas?

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

I'm not sorry.

Submitted by Norm on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:11pm.

You folks are FAR too tolerant of this bullshit. It seems like it's come to the point where taggers just need their butts kicked. I don't care if I know some of them.

Advocating violence on this blog...

Submitted by Rick on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:22pm.

...is not ok.

I can accept that. Is

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:29pm.

I can accept that.

Is advocating vandalism okay? And remember when Rob reposted that Call to Arms for an ICE demonstration where, if you read between the lines, they were calling for people to bring whatever they could for some action?

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

I don't remember reading

Submitted by Norm on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:26pm.

I don't remember reading this in the rules? Was there a waiver I signed? Last I checked all kinds of illegal things are advocated here Rick. Want to address those as well?

Violence is on another level

Submitted by chaney on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:35pm.

and I'm pretty sure you're aware of that.

Yeah, violence against

Submitted by Norm on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:46pm.

Yeah, violence against someone spraypainting your fence is SO on a different level than say, setting fire to buildings when you disagree with the company who builds them...or instigating hate toward a certain profession....

Are we not all entitled to our own opinions here? I think a little bit of violence might convince some criminals to find another hobby. I wonder if that kid who visited singapore straightened up at all?

I am so with Rick on this

Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:51pm.

Violence is the last thing I imagine this community is about. Am I wrong about Olyblog guys?

A little defining

Submitted by noradarno on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:25pm.

There is a vast difference between taggers and street artists, as well as tagging and street art.

I might not've been clear

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:26pm.

I might not've been clear earlier, but I believe that also.

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

I apologize

Submitted by Norm on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:28pm.

I'm not up on my graffiti terminology. I'm all for art in designated places. Illegal "street art" is what I have a problem with.

The Problem

Submitted by Ehver Green on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 3:12pm.

Everyday law abiding citizens don't know the difference and they have no desire to understand the difference. It's up to the artist community to make that distinction and distance themselves from criminal activity. This would be a good starting point to gain community wide acceptance for the art. I just don't see it happening in Olympia.

Haha yeah bro what a bunch

Submitted by Sako on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:08pm.

Haha yeah bro what a bunch of *** lets go have a rumble and show those *** wassupp huh broheims?

[Edited by Rick on 10/16 at 12:30 pm.]

Isn't this the same joker

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:15pm.

Isn't this the same joker that saw fit to print various slur words when they had nothing to do with the original post?

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

wow

Submitted by a.future.with.n... on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 12:52pm.

norm and merwyn. true caricatures. i really really hope the police never let you in norm. i really do. people like you terrify me. shooting people with rock salt? bloodying them up? you sound like a teenage bully.

human life and health, and for that matter the life and health of all species and the planet will never EVER be less valuable than "private property". sorry tex, but you just can't go around shooting people for whatever you want.

i seems clear to me why you want to, and never should be, a cop.

Hope hard

Submitted by Norm on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 1:02pm.

I have another test on Thursday.

FYI I didn't advocate the rock salt...that stuff can put an eye out. I think most homeowners would be more than willing to whoop on some teenage kid spraypainting their home...or keying their car...or whatever property crime you want to come up with.

Trust me, you don't know me well enough to determine why I want to work in law enforcement. Considering I haven't been in a fistfight in a long time I'm thinking your thoughts are off the mark. Of course I haven't caught anyone spray painting my motorcycle.

I Prosecuted & Won!

Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 1:09pm.

a judgment against the 2 teenage boys who felt it was OK to spray paint my garage door with the words AZIAN PRIDE. They both now have felony convictions, can't leave the U.S., can't get passports, can't own guns and will go to jail if they violate their parole which says they have to stay out of trouble until they're 21. They were 15 when they were arrested and are currently 18 now. I also won a financial judgment against them. One has since paid off his portion, we have yet to see a dime from the other. But the law says if he hasn't paid if off by the time he's 18, his paychecks will be garnished so I'm sure we'll be seeing something soon. These boys can not have their felony convictions expunged either so they're now felons for life.

Graffiti is vandalism, especially if you don't have permission to do it on particular surfaces. If you're going to vandalize my property, I'm going to pursue you through the fullest extent of the law and I've taken measures to protect my home and family from those who feel the earth proceeds my rights or their bad art skills take priority over my right to work hard & pay for my belongings.

"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown

Good for you!

Submitted by Norm on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 1:20pm.

I'm glad it turned out that way. It's too bad stories like this aren't published in the Olymipan (or was it?) it might be a deterrent for crime in our city.

Not Sure Norm!

Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 1:38pm.

The Olympian is so selective as to what they choose to report on!

"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown

well I'm sure they really

Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 1:33pm.

well I'm sure they really learned their lesson. I hope you're proud. You probably sleep like a baby. A felony for painting two words? Do you realize that there isn't an apartment owner in this town that will rent to a felon? At B&R we see this all the time. Those two are going to have incredibly tough lives because of this, and you're gloating? That's just sick.

That's Your Opinion!

Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 1:46pm.

And you have a right to it. Unfortunately, your statement about renting to felons is wrong. I can name 3 complexes locally who do rent to felons. I know because one of my children is a felon and just rented at one of them after being released from a state prison last weekend.

If these 2 boys hadn't decided it would be fun to vandalise over 30 homes in one neighborhood as a joke to scare one of my other children, they wouldn't be felons now. Do the crime, do the time. Maybe they should have thought twice about spraying racial slurs on the Chinese families home or keying the words F You down the side of a government owned patrol car or pentagrams on the homes of Christian worshipers.

Most of us are law abiding citizens who would never dream of disrespecting others. Those who do disrespect others criminally are the ones who are just sick. Not me. And I wasn't gloating, just stating the facts.

But then again, where I'm concerned, you like to pick & choose how you chastise me without facts first and the fact is, these boys broke the law. Think about me how you want, you're going to anyway and you don't even know me or how I live. Automatically, anybody who isn't an anarchist like you is always going to be wrong, bad or sick. Big deal. We know the truth!

Oh yeah, I am proud of the action we took and I'll do it again should anybody feel the right or need to vandalise what we've worked hard to achieve.

"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown

I knew something like this

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 2:38pm.

I knew something like this would pop up. The cries that these boys were just some artists, and not only that but showing some "pride" for a non-caucasian group. They couldn't have done anything wrong.

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

It sounds like they may have

Submitted by Norm on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 2:29pm.

It sounds like they may have had a longer track record than just 2 words Rob. I don't feel any sympathy toward them though. They knew it was wrong when they did it, it's not as if it were accidental or unintended.

Should JustP have invited

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 2:42pm.

Should JustP have invited them into her home and gotten to understand why they felt the need to do what they did? Maybe cook them a meal and give them the shirt off her back while she's at it? Maybe the community [the neighborhood] could have policed themselves by being out-of-work anarchist volunteers, then situations like this wouldn't have happened, right?

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

woah, there partner

Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 3:57pm.

You need to chill out.

Oh yeah, my life: I don't have a boss, don't pay taxes, help people survive cold nights, get to do things like bring a tent city to Olympia, and sleep well at night knowing that I'm doing something with my life other than making cowardly violent threats over the internet to imaginary "vandals", or wasting my time slaving away at a job I hate, that doesn't inspire me creatively, and has no chance for advancement. Did I mention that I don't have a boss? It's really cool.

You should really try being FOR things instead of always just being against things, I think you would be a lot happier. A happy person doesn't threaten to bludgeon a person with a bat or shoot them with a shotgun, or badmouth somebody for choosing a life of service for that matter.

I wasn't badmouthing you,

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 4:11pm.

I wasn't badmouthing you, what you do works for you, more power to you.

I'm quite happy, if my property were vandalized that would make me very unhappy. Nobody's being threatened for respecting other peoples' rights.

I'm for many things, including free walls. I'm for Cancer awareness and funding, I'm for true Sex Education in the public schools, I'm for affordable healthcare, free birthcontrol, Bread & Roses, even for Camp Quixote. I'm for the Separation of Church and State even while being for various churches. I'm for more public libraries, more affordable housing, more conservation in regards to development.

And, of course, I'm for respecting property. What's wrong with that?

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

wow

Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 4:15pm.

That was great Merwyn. After reading about all the things you are FOR, I feel better. I'm not mad at you, and it has totally changed how I'm looking at this discussion. Thank you very much.

I could look into Cynics

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 4:27pm.

I could look into Cynics Anonymous, but I see it as similar to when certain creative types don't want to take their antidepressants because they fear it'll spay or neuter who they really are.

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

Caricatures? Whatever. I'm

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 2:34pm.

Caricatures? Whatever. I'm being a bully if I defend myself or my property, but the person vandalizing my property for their "art" isn't being a bully themselves? Well bully for you, you're having it both ways.

human life and health, and for that matter the life and health of all species and the planet will never EVER be less valuable than "private property"

What this is coming down to is a few hippyish pseudo-anarcho punks having no respect for the law or for other peoples' property rights. With that attitude why in the Hell should we offer some respect in return?

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

What this is coming down to

Submitted by Norm on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 2:41pm.

"Good. I can feel your anger I am defenseless. Take your weapon! Strike me down with all your hatred, and your journey towards the dark side will be complete"

lol sorry, I couldn't help it Merwyn!

No argument there. Notice

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 2:48pm.

No argument there. Notice how Obi-Wan kept telling Anikin that only the Sith deal in Absolutes, and yet all the rules concerning Jedis were Absolute? Anikin got a bum rap, and he was played by a bad actor to boot.

My two favorite songs of the moment: Vanguard by David Rovics, and Love Me, I'm a Liberal by Phil Ochs.

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

??hippyish pseudo-anarcho punks??

Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 4:02pm.

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

I think Pseudo Anarcho

Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 4:10pm.

was a utility infielder for the Minnesota Twins in the early 70s. Played a few games in the majors then ended up with the Mudhens for a while. I've completely lost track of the guy.

Hippyish: a free lifestyle,

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 4:18pm.

Hippyish: a free lifestyle, separated from The Machine and/or The Man.

Pseudo-: Fake, false, or wannabe.

-anarcho: Against order. For themselves. Should know a thing or two concerning Anarchist history in this country, probably doesn't.

Punks: vandals, hooligans, delinquents.

When I see a well-dressed businessperson who pays their taxes spraying someone else's wall I'll call them out too.

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

Wow. While I think it is

Submitted by OperaGirl on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 1:07pm.

Wow. While I think it is totally rude and disrespectful to paint/draw/mess up/whatever on somehting that isn't yours I am apalled at how the idea of inflicting violence on people is being tossed around so flippantly. When it comes down to it ~ is this really the issue to get so upset and vulgar about? Is a piece of property worth more than a human being?

*I am that person who doesn't throw out rotting things because they're scary and who kills wasps by spraying things on them and screaming.*

Hehehe!

Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 1:18pm.

I spray paint things on wasps & scream too! LOL!

I think until you've actually had your property vandalised, it's hard to say how you'll react. We went through a mirade of emotions after waking up to our neighborhood vandalism, including our home. Those boys attacked us to get to our children. I'm sure had we caught them, (they were ratted out by a mutal friend of theirs and my childrens and they finally confessed), we would have reacted out of anger as well. Fortunately, the police confronted them, arrested them and we only had to deal with them through a victims advocate and the prosecutors office.

Ironically, one of the boys mother owned that Mother Earth store that used to be up by Goodwill, Big Lots and Ace Hardware on the west side. She was more upset her son couldn't travel with her to China to buy items for her store because of his felon status than she was that he had vandalised so many homes and belongings, including a WA Highway Patrol car! He took the initiative to say he was guilty, accepted his punishment, paid his fines and restitution and the other boy still lives nearby refusing to comply with the law.

Norm... If anyone dares to get close to my motorcycle with the intent of property damage, they're TOAST!

"Do not mistake for conspiracy and intrigue what can best be explained by stupidity and incompetence." - Unknown

My stepson

Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 1:42pm.

My stepson and some friends were caught breaking windows at a middle school in Edgewood (read between the lines - destroying property and causing repair bills). He first got a night in the juvenile facility in Tacoma, then court, then fines and probation.

http://thurstonblog.blogspot.com/

This sounds reasonable to me.

Submitted by Norm on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 2:30pm.

This sounds reasonable to me.

This thread is

Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 1:51pm.

icky. I feel vandalized.

This Thread went way off

Submitted by w1r3d1 on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 2:41pm.

This Thread went way off topic. Heres my point........ in a for instance matter, I have 9 windows that cost 600.00 each to replace. Each window is tagged with " Twigger" "OFA" and a few others that I wont mention because they are reading this thread and they do not need to have an ego boost. The cost to replace these windows falls on me. Do I replace the windows only to get tagged again, or do I leave these to further boost the ego of the vandal? Taggers are vandals. (period) Should harm come to them? Of course not, that is ridiculous. Should they be penalized? Yes, in the amount that it costs to clean up the mess. Should they be shamed for life? No, but they should give consideration to others property and be forced to clean up the mess they create. I don't want to live in Southern California, so I don't. I don't want any of the urban hipness that supposedly comes with aerosol art. I don't think it is cool to live in a faux urban/hiphop world, created by wanna be gangstas. If you want to live in the squaler of a big city, you should do that. I love Olympia, but the attitude of the local authorities and the "artists" leave little to be desired, and add to the decreasing decline of Downtown. Downtowns require both community and business to survive. Somehow, I think that is not being figured into this discussion.

This is an impossible conversation to reconcile

Submitted by Guglielmo on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 2:43pm.

if one side is unwilling to view the social construct of property rights through a critical lens. What we have is just another abortion thread.

Wow

Submitted by Norm on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 2:46pm.

That's the first thing that you've said in this thread that makes sense!

I haven't heard anybody say

Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 4:10pm.

I haven't heard anybody say that private property shouldn't be respected, mostly that it shouldn't be given the same legal rights as an individual. Vandalism, while not a victimless crime, doesn't hurt anybody physically. Why a felony is given to someone for vandalism is beyond me. Those kids should have been forced to pay for repairing what they damaged, clean up the mess they made, and do a few thousand hours beautifying the neighborhood. Charging them with a felony, considering that not every body has well-off parents to vouch for them like JPO's daughter, is going too far. It's not justice, it's just punishment.

If I read JP right they made

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 4:23pm.

If I read JP right they made racist comments on some Chinese-American homes. If a tagger paints some N-words on an African-American home is it still a victimless crime. What if, as I gathered from reading, the purpose of the vandalism was intimidation against someone they've had issues with. Is it still victimless?

If they've recieved an attitude adjustment, made proper restitution, and prove to live respectably and within the law then I agree the rest of their lives shouldn't be ruined. But it doesn't mean they should get off scot-free with a stern "don't do that again"

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

OOPS

Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 4:24pm.

You did say it wasn't victimless. How many beers do I owe you now?

Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.
Peter Viereck, Yale Professor

Thread closed.

Submitted by Rick on Tue, 10/16/2007 - 4:27pm.

Go outside and stomp some puddles.

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