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Officer Conduct

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 05/07/2008 - 8:45pm.

This is from Philadelphia.

In mid-2007, the city was at a rate of one murder per day. The year prior, 406 people were murdered in Philadelphia.

"Do something!" District Attorney Lynne Abraham admonished Mayor John Street at one news conference.

Two years prior was no different. From USA Today (04 DEC 2005):

Three months ago, Terrell Pough was pictured in People magazine, the proud father of a 2-year-old daughter, Diamond. At 18, he shouldered work, high school and single parenthood. He was, the magazine said, an exceptional young man.
Last month, his story took a too-familiar turn for young black men in this city: He was killed by a gunshot to the head Nov. 17 as he walked to his car after his shift as night manager of a restaurant.
As homicide figures in other big cities fall, Philadelphia will once again experience more than 300 murders this year.

Here's the broad reality of the situation:

Philadelphia has experienced more than 300 murders annually since 2000.

Last November, Officer Charles Cassidy was killed after interrupting a robbery at a Dunkin' Donuts, where he usually got his coffee (Story).

Police released portions of a chilling videotape that shows the hooded robber pushing aside two customers and waving a gun as he approaches the counter. It also shows him grabbing the fallen officer's pistol as he fled.

On 03 MAY 2008, Sergeant Stephen Liczbinski was killed responding to a robbery in progress (Story).

I say all of this before addressing the current story - officers beating suspects - to put the situation into context.

The people on tape catching the receiving end of the government's brute strength aren't Joe Citizen who is just trying to make a living. There should be little doubt in anyone's mind that these individuals are a detriment to society. People in poor economic situations - people like Terrell Pough - are trying to make the best of their situation and pull themselves up. Unfortunately, there are others who prey on them.

Here's what the mother of one suspect had to say:

"I'm horrified to see that our city cops would beat some human being like they did, like a gang-style fight," Leomia Dyches said. She added, "I'd like to see them tried for what they did."

There's a war on the street and people who aren't involved want to dictate what the rules are.

What's unfortunate is that someone even further removed from the reality on the ground - a lawyer from Villanova, perhaps - will carry out her wish.

The video is below:

The Fire Inside's blog
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Hmm...

Submitted by Just another voice on Wed, 05/07/2008 - 9:39pm.

I'm not seeing much in the way of a connection to Olympia here. Not much hyper-local. If you are trying to connect the actions at the port protest and police, or the May Day and police, then you should respond to those threads. No need to make a new topic.

But I am Just Another Voice

Fortunately, there is no

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Thu, 05/08/2008 - 12:36am.

Fortunately, there is no connection between Philadelphia and Olympia.

But that's my point.

Punishment at the street level is what happens in metropolitan America.

In affluent America - to include Olympia - the reigns are much tighter. Washington State University had a riot in 1998, which began like this (The Online Encyclopedia of Washington State History):

At approximately 12:30 a.m. on Sunday, May 3, 1998, two police officers (one from WSU and one from Pullman) responded to a report (possibly false) of a car–pedestrian accident at the intersection of Colorado and A streets in Pullman. This intersection is located in the College Hill area of Pullman just west of the Washington State University campus. When the police officers arrived, students attending a nearby keg party pelted them with rocks and beer cans. The police officers retreated and called for backup.

We've seen glimpses and read stories about what happens in urban America. In Pullman, Washington, home of the upper middle-class?

Police initially stayed away from the scene, "giving the party a chance to cool on its own"
Police attempted to disperse the crowd with tear gas, smoke, and water. This had the effect of diverting the crowd behind the officers. The crowd then attacked the officers from all sides for two hours with rocks, beer bottles, signposts, chairs, and pieces of concrete, allegedly cheering whenever an officer was struck and injured. Twenty-three officers were injured, some suffering concussions and broken bones. Reports of students and onlookers injured ranged from four to 12. Three people were arrested during the melee.

In Los Angeles, Philadelphia, Houston, Miami and every other large American city, people know if they're just in the vicinity of something like this, they're going to catch the receiving end of a fist or baton and disperse accordingly.

I'm saying dish the punishment out on the street equally, regardless of social status.

Punishment at the street level?

Submitted by The Original Yoda on Thu, 05/08/2008 - 12:43am.

Is that something you are advocating or are you noting that it wrongly exists.

I thought that law enforcement was supposed to apprehend. Isn't the punishment supposed to be given by the courts?

I'm confused.

Is that something you are

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Thu, 05/08/2008 - 1:11am.

Is that something you are advocating

I wouldn't use the word "advocate"...

or are you noting that it wrongly exists.

As much as I'm acknowledging that it exists, is a reality and is necessary.

I thought that law enforcement was supposed to apprehend. Isn't the punishment supposed to be given by the courts?

Different people need a different degree of education. When you're pulled over, you may not get a ticket. The officer may simply tell you to slow down and you'll be on your way.

When your city has hundreds of murders a year and people in certain neighborhoods view it as a victory for their kid to get from the house, to school and back without becoming another statistic because he's not from the same neighborhood as someone who lives two streets down, you have a moral obligation to make every attempt to remedy the situation.

No. Wrong.

Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 05/08/2008 - 1:22am.

If the law is the law, then that means everyone follows it, right? Cops aren't immune, nor should they be. Cops catch, courts punish. It's called a legal system. Do you want all of America to become a police state, or just certain neighborhoods?

Do you want all of America

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Thu, 05/08/2008 - 3:29am.

Do you want all of America to become a police state, or just certain neighborhoods?

It's not a "police state." Again: Joe Citizen driving down the road isn't being bothered. He rarely - if ever - encounters any representative of government outside of the Tax Man.

It's the people who pose a threat to Joe Citizen.

If the law is the law, then that means everyone follows it, right?

Except for the people who don't follow it. It doesn't make sense for one side to be constrained by a set of rules while the other has free reign.

There's a point where you forefit legal protection in the real world.

Could you be more specific about...

Submitted by The Original Yoda on Thu, 05/08/2008 - 1:48am.

...the different people thing?

Which people get which type of "education"?

Jessica Lunsford:Jessica

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Thu, 05/08/2008 - 3:24am.

Jessica Lunsford:

Jessica belonged to a church youth group, King's Kids, and had attended a meeting the night before she disappeared. She'd been preparing for a contest, memorizing a passage from the Bible, Philippians 4:13: "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."

Her murderer, John Couey:

He's been in trouble with the law for most of his adult life, having been arrested 24 times in 30-year period.

The judicial system and society failed Jessica Lunsford, affording individuals such as Cooey more than enough opportunities and second-chances as a repeat sex-offender.

Jessica's clothed body was found inside two tied plastic garbage bags. Her wrists were bound, but she had managed to poke two fingers through the plastic in an attempt to free herself. When the bags were completely removed, investigators saw that she had died clutching her prized purple dolphin.

John Couey deserved to be shot on the spot.

And yet here's what happened - again, because of people who sit behind a desk and talk about theory rather than deal with reality:

In June [2006] Judge Howard heard pretrial testimony regarding the investigation of Couey and ruled that Couey's confession to Detectives Grace and Achison in Augusta had to be thrown out because Couey's rights had been violated when the detectives did not comply with his repeated requests for legal representation.

Couey has since been sentenced to death, which more than likely won't be carried out until I'm middle-aged.

The Washington State University students I mentioned earlier deserved to be on the receiving end of brute force.

Pulled over for speeding? Hell, even shoplifting. You haven't done something so egregious that you've forefitted legal protection.

If I'm not mistaken...

Submitted by Rick on Thu, 05/08/2008 - 7:54am.

...you're suggesting complete abandonment of the Constitution.

Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt

Not at all.I'm merely

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Thu, 05/08/2008 - 4:06pm.

Not at all.

I'm merely suggesting there's a point where laws stop protecting our rights and act as a roadblock to justice.

It's not a revolutionary thought. Batman is probably familiar to the largest audience in conveying this idea.

Vigilante:

In the Western literary and cultural tradition, characteristics of vigilantism have often been noted in folkloric heroes and legendary outlaws (e.g., Robin Hood). Vigilantism in literature, folklore and legend is deeply connected to the fundamental issues of morality, the nature of justice, the limits of bureaucratic authority and the ethical function of legitimate governance.

A recent example:

In Northern Ireland, vigilantism has been observed against drug dealers and pedophiles. In one such case, a known pedophile had been released from prison early, kidnapped by a group of men dressed in black clothing and balaclavas, much like the Provisional IRA or UVF. He was stabbed twice, then, put in the back of a Ford Transit van where four Bull Mastiff dogs were waiting for him. He was then driven around Belfast and Derry for two hours. After the dogs mauled him, he was dumped in the verges of a dual carriageway. He survived.

If you search "vigilantism, Northern Ireland" you'll see other cases where suspected criminals met a demise outside of the judicial system (one such case appears to be mistaken identity, though).

None of this is on paper - nor should it be. People have to make their own decisions about how far off the reservation they're willing to go.

But in another six months, year or two years we'll see another video similar to Philadelphia and hear people who haven't been in the "trenches" go on about what's right and wrong.

In certain "worlds," if you will, laws aren't worth the paper they're written on. You operate on codes and principles.

And that's what gets me bent out of shape. We see the same thing with our soldiers in the Middle East. I hate to see people who are working on the side of good being judged on a scale of legal and illegal rather than right or wrong.

I'm pretty sure it would take me five seconds to be removed from jury duty, too.

These folks imagined they were the goods guys too

Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 05/08/2008 - 4:21pm.

I'd rather suffer the inconviences of our legal system.

But is lynching people based

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Thu, 05/08/2008 - 7:22pm.

But is lynching people based on race part of any defensible code or principle?

There's a thin line, definitely.

When you start operating outside of the customs and norms which have been established by greater society, you run the risk of drifting too far to be redeemable.

Training Day, Munich and Running Scared all do a good job on this topic.

Yeah...

Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 05/08/2008 - 11:26pm.

and a little too much Starship Troopers can foul up the reasoning process too.

nope...

Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 05/08/2008 - 8:46am.

...

TFI,

Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 05/08/2008 - 4:27pm.

What you're suggesting scares me. It puts us back in the dark ages. Cops don't punish, that's not their purpose, nor should it be. I wish a local cop would weigh in on this with an opinion.

Isn't

Submitted by a.future.with.n... on Thu, 05/08/2008 - 4:33pm.

Isn't smashing in the windows of a bank essentially vigilantly justice?

Oooh,

Submitted by Rob Richards on Thu, 05/08/2008 - 4:38pm.

That horse probably isn't gonna get back up, you should maybe stop kicking it now. :)

Isn't smashing in the

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Sat, 05/10/2008 - 9:13pm.

Isn't smashing in the windows of a bank essentially vigilantly justice?

As I've said, each person has to make his or her own decision.

I'd say yes, it's vigilante justice. But does the local Bank of America branch have anything to do with anything? Not really.

If the person throwing the rock has been cheated by a bank, they should probably seek out the individual who committed the injustice if it's that important to them.

If they've never even had an account at Bank of America, they might want to examine whether they have a legitimate grievance with the establishment.

But banks

Submitted by security_six on Sat, 05/10/2008 - 9:15pm.

Are a symbol of everything that is wrong with the system. Surely a masked criminal throwing rocks strike a powerful blow for Truth, Justice and the Socialist Way!

"Oligarchs and tyrants mistrust the people, and therefore deprive them of their arms."
-Aristotle

Interesting can o'worms you opened here TFI

Submitted by Norm on Thu, 05/08/2008 - 5:15pm.

I've always liked superman, but enjoyed Batman's ideals far better.

A local angle:The

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Sat, 05/10/2008 - 9:07pm.

A local angle:

The Olympian:

In an e-mail, Christopher Taylor, an attorney for The Evergreen Law Group, wrote that he was "encouraged that local law enforcement seems to be aware of the Constitution and its contents." His law firm has represented many people who were arrested during the high- profile incidents during the past two years. "I worry that the individuals committing acts of violence or property damage will be 'held accountable' with summary punishment by batons and pepper spray, rather than through the criminal justice system," he wrote.

The Tacoma News Tribune: Gig

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 4:42am.

The Tacoma News Tribune: Gig Harbor officer facing perjury charges in drug investigation:

A Gig Harbor police sergeant will be in court next week to answer charges he lied in reports filed as part of a drug investigation that resulted in two people being convicted of felonies.
Police have a sworn duty to tell the truth while on the job, [Gig Harbor Police Chief Mike] Davis said.
"We take that expectation very seriously," he said.

If I'm a juror this is going to come down to whether or not the officer lied for personal gain - was he involved with this informant on a side deal? - or whether it was for the Greater Good ("..there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men")

You are, most likely, not wise enough to judge

Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 05/14/2008 - 10:55am.

the greater good. Very few of us are. I suggest standing by your oath in the jury box is probably for the greater good.

Seattle Times: 3 teens

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Fri, 06/20/2008 - 10:44pm.

The Seattle Times: 3 teens charged in attack on Seattle police officer

The teens, two 16-year-old boys and a 17-year-old girl, are not being named because they are being charged as juveniles. One of the boys is also being charged with attempting to disarm an officer.
McKissack was punched in the face and kicked in the head, police said. The officer was taken to Harborview Medical Center with a concussion, Jamieson said.

I'm surprised the officers who arrived didn't ensure everyone was sent to Harborview.

Police are still investigating and have not ruled out the possibility of more arrests, Jamieson said.

It also sounds like Seattle officers need to "set the tone" a little.

"One of the boys is also being charged,

Submitted by JT on Sat, 06/21/2008 - 7:30pm.

with attempting to disarm an officer."

He's lucky he isn't dead today.

Merely placing hands on an officers gun allows for any force up to and including deadly force to be used against that person.

Not knowing all the details of the case I won't comment. But I have to wonder if the officer took a softer stance because there were kids involved in the disturbance? Seeing as there are gang shooters, commonly as young as 10 years old, and a few have been younger, it is important to deal with the threat not the age of the suspect. I'm sure it might be very difficult to apply serious force to a kid, and hard to live with the results of that application of force in a serious situation. But you are just as hurt or dead whether the suspect is 10 years old or 90 years old. There was an officer from up North, King Co or Seattle perhaps, that was attacked by teens as well about a year ago.

Hopefully the officer will be ok, physically and psychologically.

I don't have a lot of faith in Washington State's juvenile justice system holding the juvies accountable.

"A dog is not 'almost human', and I know of no greater insult to the canine race than to describe it as such." - John Holmes

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West Palm Beach, Florida

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Tue, 08/12/2008 - 8:41pm.

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