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Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Wed, 06/25/2008 - 7:45pm.
Development or protection of the quality of the open space?
» Above is an image provided by Triway Enterprises depicting the Triway vision for the Larida Passage development on the downtown isthmus. This is a picture that depicts the isthmus without any high-rise (or mid-rise) buildings. It is from Friends of the Waterfront, credit to whoever took the photo and whoever did the digital manipulation (this is a photo of the photo).
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Isthmus 2008 |
A Park would be Beneficial
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Wed, 06/25/2008 - 7:54pm.In my mind, it makes sense to maintain and restore the great open space on the isthmus. Increased housing density downtown will create increased demand for open space. It makes sense to protect the isthmus as the heart and soul of downtown, as a sacred place.
Should we build in an area that is in a flood zone given predicted sea-level rise?
Personally, I can't believe that this project has gotten as far as it has, including a $50,000 city taxpayer investment.
A lot of the arguments in support of this proposal don't hold water. The proposal strikes me as excessive, profiteering and opportunistic.
The answer to the sustainability problem is to move in jobs and housing - simultaneously.
I take seriously the question of potential economic benefit from the creation of a truly novel and special park feature. A monument to nature would serve as a tremendous focal point and recreation area, and has the potential to vitalize downtown, including the attraction of economic activity. A park would add to the vibrancy of downtown and the vision of sustainability! It would provide a place to go and feel the sun and wind for all the future residents of the increased dense urban housing units that could be developed to the East of Water Street.
$50K?
Submitted by chad360 on Wed, 06/25/2008 - 8:06pm.really?
The money has been spent?
If so, on what? (the more I hear about this process, the more I get upset...who/how does this cash get allocated and how/who decides to dole out tax breaks).
But to focus on this neat post, "great visual aid"...I could live with that for sure =)
Seeing the view without buildings is great, and I agree that there are better places to build up in Oly (thanks for posting Bert).
On the Forum, in March
Submitted by jlw on Thu, 06/26/2008 - 6:01am.>groan<
Submitted by chad360 on Thu, 06/26/2008 - 5:44pm.I have to wake-up!
...this is so "not good"-
-so no one in town could "do" that job for the city but MIG?
...via public-bid process?
(...yadda-yadda...)
>grrr-ugh!<
$250 Million...
Submitted by Burr on Thu, 06/26/2008 - 6:39am.Is the estimated price tag that one of our more financially-inclined city council members gave me for this concept of turning the isthmus into a public park.
Bert, I would be genuinely interested to know if you or any of your colleagues have given much thought to how this might be financed?
Assessed Market Values -
Submitted by Thad Curtz on Thu, 06/26/2008 - 2:54pm.From the Thurston County Assessor's property lookup website
The Capitol Center block:
410 4th - 370K
411 4th - $1.9 million
420 4th - 406K
405 5th (the high-rise) - $9.7 million
The Image Source parcel (formerly known as KFChicken)- $1.7 million
Triway's land
The parcel next to Image Source, which Triway owns now - $1.8 million
(Bought by Triway for $1.3 million in 2003)
And the Housing Authority parcel - which Triway has an option on - $1.2 million
Traditions Parcel - which the City's already going to buy - 296K
Grand Total - $20,036,000
It's still a lot of money, and that's only assessed market value. It's probably actually worth somewhat more. But it's not unthinkable as a combined City/State project over the long-term. (The parking garage the city's discussing in The Olympian today would run roughly $20 million - though they'd get parking fees to pay it off.)
More to the immediate point, Triway's piece, which is what's at stake right now, is worth somewhat over $3 million, not $250 million.
I'm not counting Bayview or the Oyster House, since they aren't in the rezone request, and I haven't talked to anyone who's interested in a park who is thinking about getting rid of them. They'd actually be a genuine "urban edge" to a park. And if the rest of the rezone request were park, then leaving the Traditions strip too and having cafe tables out in the fountain park behind those low buildings might be quite nice.
I can't imagine where the Council member you talked to came up with $250 million... solid gold benches?
I think the council member used
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 06/26/2008 - 3:00pm.PS
Submitted by Thad Curtz on Thu, 06/26/2008 - 3:26pm.Apparently I can't edit my reply?#?
The two cheaper lots in my list for "The Capitol Center" block are the parking lots between Bayview and the Oyster House. Sorry.
Just in case any of you get into this and start looking lots up, I think that the numbers in the map in Section 1 of Triway's application that are pointing to these parcels of Jim Potter's must be switched around.)
If I'm not mistaken, you can
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Thu, 06/26/2008 - 3:46pm.I like Guinea Pigs. And they're easy to cook!
Assessed values have little...
Submitted by samdunkirk on Fri, 06/27/2008 - 9:20am....to do with real-world transaction prices when it comes to condemnation or bulk-acreage purchases. To use your own turn of phrase, but this time to append fact to it, research shows that property owners understand scarcity value and will price up their lots if they perceive a desire by the City for a large-scale purchase. Condemnation wouldn't solve for that risk, either, given what would certainly be exorbitant legal fees and endless challenges.
More important than the utter economic impossibility of acquiring any significant portion of this land is the fact that I think we'd be doing a major disservice to our community by bulking up on more parkland in favor of a high-probability residential project that brings some diversity and density to our downtown. To the extent that a market-rate housing project (and market-rate simply means achieving price/ft that the market will bear) spurs other projects by more risk-averse developers further into the downtown core, we achieve far more good for far more citizens vs. expending what would be astronomical sums on adding incrementally modest space to an existing park and protecting infrequently-enjoyed views from the Capitol Hillside switchbacks.
I know it's heresy to consider EVER valuing development over parkland, but I'm afraid that what's been lost by many of the "Friends" is the understanding that the incremental utilization of an expanded park that's on the border of a currently disused and, in the future, decrepit downtown will be quite limited. I know we'll hear howls of disagreement on this forum, but it's my experience that Heritage Park, as is, is lightly utilized today.
There was a lot of heartfelt testimony, primarily by older folks who grew up in downtown, that they don't and won't visit now because there's not much left besides tattoo parlors and bars and they don't feel particularly safe. There's clearly a good dose of perception at the cost of reality in those sentiments, and some members of the audience on Tuesday night hissed and snickered when they said it, but it's simply wrong to ignore those citizens' views. Adding more park acreage isn't going to cure what ails downtown. And, I concede, neither solely is development on the isthmus. But one is a catalyst for more, and probably better, longer-term development of the kind we need, and the other would just amount to an obscenely expensive folly meant to put a feather in the cap of our "activist" community.
Adding a park for our current residents who're happy with their lot but not thinking much of their future neighbors or those who lament downtown's downward spiral isn't being civic-minded. It's being selfish and short-sighted.
Clarification
Submitted by jlw on Fri, 06/27/2008 - 10:02am...parking???
Submitted by einmaleins on Fri, 06/27/2008 - 10:34am.mathias
einmaleins
I think you kind of missed my point
Submitted by jlw on Fri, 06/27/2008 - 11:34am."...Heritage Park, as is, is lightly utilized..."
Submitted by chad360 on Fri, 06/27/2008 - 10:49am.In my experience, the park is so used that State cops gotta turn folks away at night...
...I'd strongly disagree with you, especially since your opinion just does not align with the use I see everyday.
...as for "obscene", the only thing that fits that bill in Oly may be the very condos we are discussing if they are really gonna be going for $600K+ (my opinion).
I'm really curious what design gets float'd for the new City Hall...perhaps that project can inform the quality of design that Oly is shooting for and "raise the bar" for development downtown.
Photoshopping out the building
Submitted by Thad Curtz on Fri, 06/27/2008 - 5:46pm.Was courtesy of a new guy in town - John Leisenring - well, newly back in town, anyway - I'm pretty sure he grew up here. He's got an animation/ digital imaging/ video and audio editing company called JCL Animations.
Thanks to John
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Fri, 06/27/2008 - 11:46pm.link to larger size:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rwhitlock/2617756602/sizes/o
Mountainless, too!
Submitted by Ehver Green on Sat, 06/28/2008 - 12:35am.Thanks Rob
Submitted by stevenl on Wed, 06/25/2008 - 8:11pm.Back in the late 1960s-early 1970s the mayor of Olympia, Tom Allen, wanted to eliminate Sylvester Park and replace it with a parking garage.
It was a case of the coin of the realm tipping the scales of aesthetics.
Fortunately, Bert Cole, Land Commissioner at the time, said no way in Hell that would happen as the Park is State land.
And today, as Rob has said, once again the scales are being tipped by cashola.
In Vermont, where I lived for awhile, they appreciated the fact that scenic beauty translated into tourist dollars. Oly could learn a thing or two from the Green Mountain State. Housing needs can still be met, developers can still realize their profit-- at some other place in town. I agree with Rob, that spot is the crossroads and once high-rises go up, it will be like getting a bad tattoo and the morning after you Olympians will be asking yourselves, "What was I thinking?!?"
How about a trade?
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 06/25/2008 - 8:27pm.land swap
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Wed, 06/25/2008 - 8:35pm.[Additionally: The Legal Representative for Triway resorted to threats last night, saying that it is either multi-use high-rise buildings or a three-story office building. He essentially said, have your pick. Personally, I would rather have the office building. Anyway, it's my understanding that there would have to be public hearings even for a three-story office building.
I think threatening to do something, from the basis of private ownership and power, and personal authority, weakens the Triway proposal and the proposal to rezone.
The people are saying that this is not what they want. It would be wise for everyone involved to listen to what the people want.]
Nothing is ever on the table until someone puts it there.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 06/25/2008 - 8:40pm.The three story office building is an empty threat
Submitted by jlw on Thu, 06/26/2008 - 6:07am.I like that...
Submitted by enpen on Wed, 06/25/2008 - 11:22pm.Maybe build 6 stories of condos on top of the new City Hall. It's like an added incentive for the City start doing something with that great new block we bought.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
I like the idea of moving
Submitted by Chia on Thu, 06/26/2008 - 7:34am.Don't eat meat, ride a bike...that's how you can brake global warming, the head of the United Nation's Nobel Prize-winning scientific panel on climate change said...
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
Submitted by einmaleins on Wed, 06/25/2008 - 8:52pm.I'm not particular excited about the designs of the Larida Passage myself. It looks like a typical condo development - nothing spectacular.
But I want to ask a couple of questions regarding the second picture:
Why did the people who did the rendering leave the cranes from the port in the picture?
Wouldn't that be something that should be removed as well. Especially if we talk about a master plan for Olympia.
Would the park at the isthmus also include removal of Thriftway, 4th Ave and the bridge?
If we already talk about this great park, I fell like we should go all the way and remove as much human influence in that area as possible.
What's the history of the isthmus anyway. It seems something man-made, to create the Capitol Lake - shouldn't we open the water passage then as well, so the Salmons can run again?
In order for me to get excited about a possible vision for a city, I'd love to get the bigger picture and really try to understand what historically had happened here before and what the intention was for settlers or develop the area.
Do you believe we could transform Olympia back to it's original natural state?
Where would the city and it's people move to and do business?
mathias
einmaleins
mathias for planning commissioner!
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Wed, 06/25/2008 - 9:00pm.As for the Container Cranes, I am with you, that's the first thing I thought when I saw the picture too (I wonder how many times those have been used to move containers...talk about responsible investment...).
Hey, don't diss on the cranes
Submitted by Laurian on Wed, 06/25/2008 - 9:53pm.They represent a capability that will always be useful. The cranes, like the port in general, are capital that provide really well paying jobs. Getting rid of them would be like getting rid of a Craftsman table saw because it isn't used 24/7.
The last task the cranes performed was to unload blades for wind turbines. Are the Port and it's cranes the highest use possible for the land on which they sit? Perhaps not, but having flexibility and some unused potential is not a bad idea. One of the problems with Capitalism as praticed in America is to use everything at the highest level possible. This philosophy leaves no margin of error. Leave the cranes alone.
use of cranes
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Wed, 06/25/2008 - 10:02pm.fact check:
Still, maybe you have a point. But, truthfully, I would like to know the statistics. How many times have the cranes been used?
I stand corrected.
Submitted by Laurian on Thu, 06/26/2008 - 4:47pm.That's about the best use of our port
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 06/26/2008 - 4:58pm.After
Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 06/27/2008 - 6:21pm.Container Cranes
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Tue, 07/01/2008 - 3:07pm.Again,
Submitted by Just another voice on Wed, 06/25/2008 - 11:32pm.1. No one-- not even 6 years ago during the first 'threat'-- has offered to start a purchase plan for the land. No land trust, state, or city department has offered to make a purchase of the land either. That strikes me as showing that these are just visions that aren't backed up by real, hardcore plans.
2. Flooding. When the sea level rises, the least of our worries are going to be the condos on the isthmus. Seriously. The world will be freaking out at that point. And besides, if we talk about a park, we need to start talking native space, not green space. Green space, to me, implies lots of grass, which takes a lot of water and energy to maintain. We need to start bringing back the native playspace to our parks. With that being said, I have to give a lot of credit to the state for purple pipes.
Anyway, that was my rant for the evening. Bottom line is that I'd like to see some real plans for Friends of the Waterfront or another group, or even a government agency, coming forward to say 'let's buy the land'
But I am Just Another Voice
How do we plan for sea level rise?
Submitted by Burr on Thu, 06/26/2008 - 6:47am.Our community has already invested many hundreds of millions of dollars in both public and private works in areas of downtown that are projected to be impacted by sea level rise in the next generation and beyond, including The Port, LOTT, The Farmers Market and the recently-approved and publicly-funded Hand-On Children's Museum. I have heard - though have not confirmed - that rebuilding LOTT somewhere else would be a $1 Billion undertaking alone.
With this in mind, should the sea level rise predictions become reality, isn't reasonable to assume that before we abandon and retreat from our urban lowlands and the substantial investments we have made there, we, as a community, would likely take measures to protect them? This will be expensive, but probably not as expensive as abandonment. As the Dutch have proven for over a thousand years, protection from the seas is a feasible and sensible approach to take when faced with such a dilemma.
Mr. Hoey's presentation at the SPEECH forum recommended four different strategies - in order of relevance to the threat as we face it today - for managing this issue. Only the very last of these four strategies was the concept of retreating to higher ground, while the very first strategy was to mitigate the effects of global warming. Building our city's first high-density housing structure would be one important way for our community to pursue this initial strategy.
Question for Burr
Submitted by jlw on Thu, 06/26/2008 - 8:21am.I tried to find mention...
Submitted by Burr on Thu, 06/26/2008 - 9:18am....of this alternative in The Olympian on May 7th, the day after Triway unveiled plans for both options at their open-house (well, partially open house) in Tumwater. It was not mentioned in the article reporting on the event.
It was, however, brought up several times by both Triway and numerous speakers at the hearing on Tuesday.
I am surprised that it is not a more widely known alternative.
Does anyone out there have reference material on this?Ethics, Growth, Global Warming and Sea-level rise
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Fri, 06/27/2008 - 3:44pm.Instead envisioning walls, we should focus on placement of present and future development in regions of the urban core that will be safe from sea-level rise (given predicted worst-case scenarios.) Future and current development and planning must, similarly, focus on an intensive push to dramatically and drastically reduce - and hastily eliminate - global warming (climate disruption causing) pollution.
One of the methods is to increase housing density. So the isthmus high rises do have that going for them. But that is not enough. We also must have jobs for those in the new dense housing centers so it is possible to walk to places of employment. Mass transit can play a huge role in that...
From my perspective, it is wrong to plan for future sea-level change with the idea of putting up barriers, while still contributing to the pollution that will cause the sea-level change. The bulk of the efforts must be toward creating a truly sustainable society - bringing green house gas emissions down to a truly sustainable level.
Additionally, with the prospect of an increasingly dense urban core, it strikes me as an excellent idea, really a matter of critical importance, to protect the great open space of the isthmus, for the enjoyment of all.
cost to other park projects
Submitted by emmettoconnell on Thu, 06/26/2008 - 8:09am.I'm not sure what the overall cost would be to build the "ithmus park," but any of the numbers I've seen kicked around ($25 million, $250 million) don't compare well to the city's overall park development budget.
In 2004 the citizens passed a park/sidewalk utility tax increase (from 6 to 9 percent) which the council leveraged for a ten year bond of $9.5 million. That is pretty much the entire city budget for park land purchase and development for the next ten years. And, we're going to do some pretty nice stuff with that money, but mostly in terms of parks out in the neighborhoods.
One massive, expensive downtown park would cost way more than we have on hand and, because compared to the rest of the city, few people actually live downtown now, would be of little benefit, especially to people who could easily walk there.
Hooray!
Submitted by Ehver Green on Thu, 06/26/2008 - 8:33am.Walkers
Submitted by Thad Curtz on Thu, 06/26/2008 - 2:06pm.I was at a State Capitol Campus Design Committee meeting (because a friend of mine got me to go and speak up for thinking about the big Woodard Bay bat colony that currently depends on the lake as an evening feeding ground and might not use an estuary) and somebody on the committee said 1,000 people a day walk around the lake now.
It's on my list of facts to check.
Yes, the bats!!
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 06/26/2008 - 2:30pm.Olympia does not have all the money for a park
Submitted by Laurian on Thu, 06/26/2008 - 4:58pm.but some combination of State/City financing does put a park in the realm of possibility.
In a somewhat related issue the Parking Advisory Committee endorsed a study recommending building a parking garage where the old Mills funeral building. Estimated price tag? 20 million. Parks and parking garages are public amenities, all be it different animals, but loosely comprable.
Let's talk about this...
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 06/27/2008 - 10:10am."To the extent that [developing the isthmus] spurs other projects by more risk-averse developers further into the downtown core"
What other projects and locations are we talking about here? If more were on the table perhaps the community could come to an agreement. Right now it is as if the ONLY option is the isthmus.
This is speculation at its best (worst?).
Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 06/27/2008 - 3:22pm.Nobody is touting the Colpitts development as a good example of right development, everybody has been quiet about it. So people who are pro-Larida can keep accusing the opposition of not providing alternatives, thereby making them look reactive and lame. Anti-Larida activists, in my opinion, should be praising Colpitts, and using that as the example of housing that we need, and then start thinking of how to get more of that here. And they better do it fast if they want to win back their "isthmus".