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Submitted by a.future.with.n... on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 4:21pm.
So the sunset has come and gone and the Pedestrian Interference Ordinance (PIO) has become law. Part of the leverage used to get the PIO passed was a characterization of downtown Olympia as a crime ridden cesspool. Anyone reading the daily zero comments would notice stuff like this:
It seems JT has posted some crime statistics that oppose the idea that Olympia is a dangerous or crime ridden place (duh!). Now of course it's not perfect, but I don't think it's that bad. My question is this: was the PIO the right thing to do? If not, what are some ideas to improve downtown that don't already assume it's some type of modern day Sodom and Gomoraugh.
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Hmmm
Submitted by PeaceCompass on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 6:22pm.And you know this person how?
Submitted by Ehver Green on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 10:35pm.WOW. What Story in The O Did That Come From Today?
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 7:47pm.nope
Submitted by a.future.with.n... on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 10:30pm.Comments page
Submitted by security_six on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 10:37pm.Not a story per se... Personally I am tired of getting people panhandling as well. It is not a huge problem, but some nights I can hardly walk down fourth without three -five people trying to get change, get me to pay them to play some ratty looking guitar (and rather agressive about it too) or bum me for smokes, which since I don't smoke is pointless.
It is not as bad as Seattle, but personally anytime my voyage down a sidewalk is hampered by one or more people standing directly in front of me begging for money, then that is too many. Even worse are the times two or three people have descended en masse trying to get money...
I'm sure I'm not winning any friends here, but this is an issue at times, so are the people with their scavenged or low quality merchandise spread out on the sidewalk for sale, impeding traffic. I'm all for free enterprise, but find a way to do it that doesn't force me to choose to walk in the street or step on your goods. I enjoyed visiting Tiajuana for the street vendors, but I could still negoiate the sidewalks...
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
boo hoo hoo
Submitted by a.future.with.n... on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 10:41pm.I suppose
Submitted by security_six on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 10:43pm.You approve of agressive panhandling, or does anyone who complain about it automatically become a whiner? Yes I am familiar with the PIO and I support it.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
FOR THE RECORD
Submitted by Rob Richards on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 10:49pm.It is very important that we remember that our words have definitions that mean certain things in certain contexts. Adding the word aggressive to the word panhandling is describing a different set of actions than just the word panhandling does.
First off
Submitted by security_six on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 10:55pm.I would never draw my weapon unless I was legally and morally justified in doing so, nor do I believe I have given the impression I would do otherwise. I trust you were just being sarcastic and/or bitter....
I was not yet living in Oly when the PIO passed so I missed a lot of the debate. However as I understand the law, panhandling per se is still not outlawed, if nothing else there is probably a huge free speech issue with that (read the state constitution on free speech)
Here is what I consider over the top for panhandling.
Getting in front of my and making it more difficult to walk down the sidewalk
Two or more people approaching in a group and in such a way that makes it more difficult to walk down the sidewalk
Persistant comments after an initial refusal which make it more difficult to walk down the sidewalk
Attempting to sell me services such as music playing or shoeshine in such a way that makes it more difficult to walk down the sidewalk
Are you detecting a theme yet? This does happen on a regular basis.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
I ALWAYS give money to people who are asking for money if...
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Sun, 02/03/2008 - 3:11am....they have a service to perform. Street performance is completely essential, in my book.
Most street performers do not outright ask for money.
If there really is someone in town offering to shine shoes for money that would definitly be a welcome service. Sadly, such a service does not exist in this town.
Asking people for spare change is not a crime. If you don't feel like giving just say no.
I agree with S6 entirely.
Submitted by Ehver Green on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 10:45pm.I supported it from day one
Submitted by Ehver Green on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 10:42pm.I supported it from day one and still support it today. I don't see anything but benefit from the ordinance. Any specific examples to the contrary?
TESC should hire some PR folks to build a better image. The school has its strengths but they always seem to be overshadowed by the bad. Call it perception if you'd like - it still doesn't change the aura.
What have been the benefits?
Submitted by Rob Richards on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 10:43pm.I get free and clear
Submitted by Ehver Green on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 10:51pm.Do you go downtown more now that the PIO is in effect?
Submitted by Rob Richards on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 10:53pm.Same amount, give or take.
Submitted by Ehver Green on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 10:55pm.Yeah, send in the brute squad.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 10:42pm.Sorry, but this is just silly.
The agressive ones
Submitted by security_six on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 10:48pm.Are the problem. And yes there are agressive ones who won't take no for an answer. I don't get them often, between being 6'9" or carrying a gun openly they tend to leave me alone. They are not as big an issue as in Seattle, but at least once a week I have my path blocked by people trying to seperate me from my hard earned offering nothing in return, nor capable of convincing me they have a need for it. I am compassionate, but have a hard time handing over money to someone who looks like a skinny punk rocker. People of slightly more vulnerable populations are those I am willing to aid, not young drifters.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
Fair enough
Submitted by Rob Richards on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 10:52pm.You're right - not since the
Submitted by Ehver Green on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 10:54pm.You're right - not since the PIO has this happened to me and I'm down there once a week if not more. One more reason the PIO has worked for me.
How has it not worked for you - specifically?
How often did it happen to you before the PIO?
Submitted by Rob Richards on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 10:55pm.I'm not a human stat
Submitted by Ehver Green on Sun, 02/03/2008 - 11:42am.I'm not a human stat machine, ya know!
Off the top of my head I can think of 3 different occasions where I was more than just asked for money. One time I was with our girls. The youngest was too young to really make sense of it but Charley was visible shaken by the exchange.
Mainly
Submitted by security_six on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 10:58pm.Near clubs and bars at night is when I get hassled. It may very well be out of town drifters creating the problems. It comes and goes. At any rate sometimes I am more comfortable downtown than others. The bars and clubs probably play a role. I suppose if I kept a log of out of town shows and cross referenced them with panhandling experiences...
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
again
Submitted by a.future.with.n... on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 10:53pm.what would you like to see done about it?
also: would you say that downtown matches the den of sin/total chaos description used to justify the ordinance?
When you can recognize that
Submitted by Ehver Green on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 10:55pm.Exactly
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 7:03pm.Rob has said it a lot
Submitted by enpen on Sat, 02/02/2008 - 11:46pm.There were already laws in place to address aggressive panhandling. Using examples of aggressive panhandling in order to justify this law is not seeing the forest for the trees. This law gives our police authority to remove people deemed morally questionable (at best).
There's a lot of talk about how wrong it is to silence voices by kicking them off of OlyBlog, a collection of ones and zeros. Where's this defense of flesh and blood people sitting on our sidewalks?
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
Enpen Says,
Submitted by Ehver Green on Sun, 02/03/2008 - 11:49am.Are there any specific examples of the PIO being the enforcement tool here?
Valid point and I'll give this a bit more thought. Rick's attempt to move the discussion to OlyGunBlog comes to mind.
From day one, the ordinance was used as a move along tool.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Sun, 02/03/2008 - 11:54am.I know that when I see a
Submitted by Aoife on Sun, 02/03/2008 - 9:36am.Weighing in with spare change (or my own two cents)
Submitted by Zero_One on Sun, 02/03/2008 - 11:52am.I have no problem
Submitted by security_six on Sun, 02/03/2008 - 7:11pm.Per se with sitting on the sidewalk. Just keep out of people's way and don't impede traffic. Street performers I give money to. People who come up to me asking if I want to give them money to play their guitar (it has happened) I say no to. There is a balance between keeping the sidewalks open for people and restricting agressive behaviors. Mabe the PIO should be revisitited... I don't know. I like downtown a bit more with it in place though.
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
I frequent down town on a
Submitted by OperaGirl on Sun, 02/03/2008 - 8:38pm.I frequent down town on a regular basis...occasionly by myself (yaHOO!), sometimes with the husby on our 'date night' when we go to eat and wander around and most often with one or both of my children. I have never been asked for money in an aggressive way. It doesn't faze my kids at all if they are with me (they are 4 and 9). If anything it's a great way to open up conversation with them about homeless issues and ways we can help. I think to some people the homeless are very scary. People fear the unknown and if all you know about the homeless people in Olympia is what you read in the Olympian then I am sure that someone asking you for money is going to freak you out.
Our church had an overflow shelter in December which I volunteered at and the people who came there were pretty darn fantastic. The most eye opening moment was when I teased a couple of the ladies that since they were sleeping in the children's choir room that I would expect to hear singing and piano playing. They laughed and gave the "Oh you don't want to hear that..." and I left. A few minutes later I heard piano playing and it was really good. I was so impressed yet so saddened. As the music floated down the hallway I wondered what happened in this woman's life to leave her in this situation.
Who am I to judge these people who find themselves without shelter, without medical care, without food? What if it were me and instead of singing in front of audiences in a nice warm safe theater I was singing out on the street corner hoping to make enough money for a decent meal. And instead of people clapping and telling me how wonderful my performance was I was enduring glares and comments to "get a job". My husband and I are lucky we had the support we had in the beginning of our marriage ~ our story could have turned out very differently and I try to remain aware of the every day. To not let my owning of "things" make me feel entitled to judge those who don't because there was a time when we had nothing.
Anyway, I am totally off topic and I hope that my fragmented thoughts make some sense! I think I need glasses because the computer screen is looking very fuzzy...
Music is the mediator between the spiritual and the sensual life. ~Ludwig van Beethoven
Worthless and senseless
Submitted by Jade on Sun, 02/03/2008 - 9:12pm.-Aggressive panhandling, as described above, and pedestrian interference were both illegal prior to this ordinance going into effect. You were not allowed to ask for money in a harassing or intimidating way, nor were you allowed to block pedestrian movement on the sidewalk. Doing so could get you ticketed. In 12 years of regular downtown patronage, I have never been blocked from walking down the sidewalk except at Arts Walk, which as far as I know carries on. And I have never been made to feel afraid for not giving someone money.
-The ordinance outlaws sitting or standing on the sidewalk, panhandling whatsoever, street performance (except with a permit that is a bureaucratic SNAFU), and any kind of signs, wares, or seating on the sidewalk, unless they are more than 6 feet from a building, which basically means on the curb outside the awnings. It seems pretty clear to me that EVERYTHING that was made illegal by the ordinance continues downtown. I believe there have still been no tickets issued for violations, yet the sidewalks are still full of people from all walks, musicians, sandwich board signs, bistro tables, and clearance tables. In other words, this thing is BS.
-I'm not sure what has gotten "better" since this went into effect, but I'd be interested to hear any testimony on this. As far as I can see, the only change downtown has been that the police now regularly tell homeless people that if they don't move on they could be arrested. The city council swore that the ordinance would not be enforced in this way, and that if it did, it would be thrown out. I have yet to see or hear of someone being told to move their bistro tables or sidewalk signs. I have yet to hear of someone who hated downtown a year ago who has positive things to say about it now.
Given that, does anyone have a thought about HOW exactly this ordinance benefits our fair city?
Sometimes I really hate Olyblog
Submitted by security_six on Sun, 02/03/2008 - 9:20pm.Some of my preconcieved notions and ideals get blown out of the water. Screw it, I have read enough impassioned arguments to be willing to change my mind on the PIO.
I have seen enough information here that indicates it really is a poorly created law that serves as nothing more than a "move along" ordinance. Screw it, if the homeless can't or won't find another place to sit let 'em. Socially undesirable? Screw that too. I do enough socially undesirable things in the eyes of some people I should be more forgiving. Let no person impede the flow of business or traffic and I don't care what they do. Maybe this summer I'll just sit on the sidewalk reading a book and open carrying. :-)
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
Businesses impacted...
Submitted by Katherine on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 12:33pm.Just a comment re:
I know of a few buisnesses that have received visits from the code enforcement officer regarding outdoor wares/seating/signs. Dumpster Values, Darby's, McHugh's furniture, Clubside, Harmony.... There's paperwork to be filled out by businesses wanting to use the sidewalk outside their store front and reviewed by code enforcement... but I don't think the council that passed the PIO wanted to see business-generated street life impacted negatively.
Perhaps this was changed
Submitted by Jade on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 2:13pm.Jade
I think it was clear
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 5:05pm.Getting away from the specifics of the PIO,
Submitted by Katherine on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 9:24pm.Everybody has needs, it's true.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 10:02pm.We have to start by bringing all of the stakeholders to the table. The PIO was the product of a one sided, top down process that didn't take into account the homeless, the poor, or the many small businesses who were against it.
The city council failed to listen to the people, if they had, we would've seen a much more inclusive solution come out of it, and probably would not have seen the criminalization of sitting (which is a need).
Here we are
Submitted by Katherine on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 11:14pm.It sounds like there are two stakeholders right here. I need help. I am a decent person who has a specific passion around youth in need. And I run a family business. I use downtown for a lot of things, not just commerce. It's where my children and I spend what very little free time we have together enjoying the scenery, playgrounds and people watching. I don't fall on either side of the rhetorical fence in this question of business and the street, and I don't think most of the people running businesses downtown do, either.
The PIO is most certainly a "move-it-along" tool, and probably not a great one. But it is an attempt to make our streets and sidewalks more attractive for more people. Is it never okay for people to say move along? Stop congregating right outside of my business? When I open in the morning and someone has found refuge in the alcove outside my business does giving them a cup of coffee and asking them to move along "physically assulting" them by denying them my store front? At what point can I assert my rights to run my business and keep my store front attractive and not be called callous and cruel?
It is certain there is a lot to be done among us. Clearly public space is important in providing places for people to be. I'm learning that shelter beds are in short supply, despite what I see as an honest effort by municipal and county agencies to provide more. Olympia is a small town with urban issues, and it is uncomfortable for such a small community to be carrying the burden of the poor and mentally ill for the entire county and beyond.
But it is not only on the city and business side that there is a lack of understanding. That is the gap we need to bridge as committed people who care about our community and its tremendous potential.
"Two stakeholders..."
Submitted by Phil Owen on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 11:22pm.Not really. In the history of attempts at creating "quality of life" laws (in Oly this includes attempts at banning camping, car camping, panhandling, sitting and lying on sidewalks, and more), the one most important group of people to the discussion have been remarkably absent and uninvited: the homeless.
I'm not sure this blog is the best forum for getting your concerns addressed. Please send me a private message, and I'll be happy (as a homeless outreach worker) to stop by your business and talk with you about any particular concerns you may have. We may know a lot of the same people, and maybe I can help start a conversation between yourself and the folks who you have concerns about.
The Canaanite's Call
You've got the answer, Katherine
Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 02/05/2008 - 11:11am.I work at Bread and Roses. Granted, that's a much different business than yours is most likely. If any business owner in Olympia, and I want to be very clear about this, thinks they have a harder time with people sleeping or drinking on their property than we do, I'd seriously dispute that. I'll let you in on what has worked for me. There was a long time where we would have a zero tolerance policy for sleeping in our entryway. We would constantly boot people out for drinking or just being there after hours. It got to be stressful. We're supposed to be here to help people yet we were having daily arguments with them about sleeping out front. What I did eventually was pick two people that didn't drink or do drugs and had earned my trust, gave them sleeping bags and blankets and permission to sleep there, as long as they would enforce the rules. The rules were, no drinking, no drugs, and everything has to be picked up by 8 in the morning. This worked like a charm and I didn't have any problems anymore.
I say the best thing you, or any business owner downtown could possibly do is to start a relationship with the person, learn their name and offer them some kind of a barter. Maybe you let them sleep in the alcove and give them a hot cup of coffee every morning and they'll keep the alcove cleaned up and be out of there by a certain time, it worked a like a charm for us, and is to me a way better way to change things downtown than passing negative laws.
God bless citizen
Submitted by Jade on Sun, 02/03/2008 - 10:00pm.:-)
Jade
Oh
Submitted by security_six on Sun, 02/03/2008 - 10:03pm.I wouldn't say journalism as much as the ability to sit down and have some back and forth conversations. That's what I like about going to the Broho, it's nice to put names to faces and call faces names :-) Although it's getting harder to check my RPG with the doorman :-) (Yes Gug I stole your joke. What are you going to do about it?)
One loves to posess arms, though they hope to never have occassion for them.
Thomas Jefferson to George Washington 1796
Citizen Journalism...
Submitted by Rick on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 8:52am....is exactly that conversation. Individually, none of us knows enough -- together, we get to the bottom very effectively.
> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract
If only our city council
Submitted by Jade on Sun, 02/03/2008 - 10:00pm.Jade
You're right. If only our city council could be Jade.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Sun, 02/03/2008 - 11:51pm.Wow
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Sun, 02/03/2008 - 10:08pm.wow
Now MY screen is getting
Submitted by Meta Hogan on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 9:01am.Light-weights
Submitted by Phred on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 1:55pm.Phred,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 5:08pm.Second, while I agree with the nut of what you're saying, I'd ask you to leave out the name calling. We try to look for the common ground first here, and calling someone a 'whiner' puts them on the defensive and really stifles conversation.
Thanks
Saying No Doesn't Always Work
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 7:19pm.especially if you're a woman.
I've politely said no, mostly because I never carry cash, and have had my arm grabbed and been told I look like I can afford to hand over $10.00. When I requested my arm be released, the man told me he'd release it when I handed some change over to him. Many people passed us during this confrontation and not one person stopped and told that man to remove his hand from me either.
I realize this isn't indicative of every homeless person or street kid down there, but it was enough for me to be frightened. I also have a drug addicted child who lives on the streets down there and know what they do to others survive and it isn't pretty.
Call me a whiner, call me whatever you want, but I do not feel safe downtown. I haven't for a while and I don't go down there after dark or without my husband.
Thanks for sharing Onry
Submitted by Norm on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 7:28pm.For the most point, I'm non-violent
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 7:30pm.but a refusal to take ones hands off me after my request, might result in a flat hand on the nose (makes the eyes water something terribly, thus you can exit)
I Will Keep That Technique In Mind
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 7:54pm.should I ever find myself in that situation again anywhere!
For a split second, I thought about swinging but changed my mind because I didn't want to be arrested for assault and I didn't know how the man would react once I swung!
Onry's experience has the elements for the crime of,
Submitted by JT on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 9:00pm.strong arm robbery.
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Wow. When and where exactly did this happen to you?
Submitted by Rob Richards on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 10:03pm.It WasRight After
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 10:55pm.That's not pan handling
Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 10:42pm.wow, thanks 4 sharing
Submitted by chad360 on Tue, 02/05/2008 - 10:56am.Geez, that is really creepy-
I have never been panhandled in Downtown Olympia
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Mon, 02/04/2008 - 7:14pm.Lately, though, I'm "three for three" in my last three trips to Office Depot in Lacey.
THAT is on private property, not a public street.
take pictures
Submitted by chad360 on Tue, 02/05/2008 - 11:03am.I always take the picture of someone who hassles me, and do not tolerate aggressive behavior.
When confronted by someone who is aggressive, I do not talk to them or interact, but if pressed I call 911 and follow the person until the cops show up and have them arrested (I hate thugs).
I could care less "about diversity" (which is reverse racism), I interact with people "at face value".
There are dangerous folks in Olympia and to dismiss concerns is foolish--
--sharing info about stuff like this could help someone avoid a bad scene.
It's so tricky
Submitted by Katherine on Tue, 02/05/2008 - 11:14am.