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Submitted by Phil Owen on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 4:54pm.
IntroductionThis is the beginning of a special series of posts, just for my friend Rob. Rob and I lived and worked together for 3 years at Bread & Roses, and have shared enough drinks to blind a sailor. It is, therefore, important to me that he get his very concerning questions answered about what I think is going to happen to him after he kicks the bucket. This is also a good opportunity for general discussion on religion, as there is a tremendous amount of misinformation and misunderstanding around the issue. So I am going to take the opportunity to post on a range of issues that seem to go to the root of the misunderstanding, including: afterlife, scriptural exegesis and interpretation, the meaning of faith, and the purpose of religion. Some of what I will write in this series will be based on my understanding of current biblical scholarship, which is highly technical and actually quite scientific in its [the scholarship, not so much my understanding of it] approach. And some of what I write will be my own opinions, which are relatively well educated but nonetheless quite subjective. I am by no means in any way an expert. Just a lively layperson. Please feel free to jump in on the discussion, but let's try to avoid making assumptions and jumping to conclusions about the beliefs of others. Let's try to keep it polite and civil as well (okay Mike, here you go: Let's try to be gentle with each other here.) Afterlife"So, do you indeed believe in an eternal "punishment" for not believing in God and Jesus and following Christian dogma?" I frankly do not know what I believe about heaven and hell. There is actually very little written in the Bible about the afterlife. Most of the New Testament (I'll abbr. "NT" for New and "OT" for Old Testaments) apocalyptic literature, particularly the Book of Revelations, closely models the OT Book of Daniel, which promises an end to Empire and the establishment of a new, more just and more peaceful social order. The grand opponent in Daniel is the Greek empire, and in Revelations it is Rome. Furthermore, references in Scripture to the "Kingdom of Heaven", "Kingdom of God", "Reign of God", and "Rule of God" are actually not speaking of the afterlife. These words describe a potential reality that already exists, here and now, on Earth. To make a very bad analogy, but the best I can think of, try crossing the radical's idea of Revolution (with a capital "R") with the Buddhist's concept of Enlightenment, and you'll have something in the same ballpark as the "Kingdom of Heaven". It is a new social order, a kind of relationship, and a way of being all wrapped up in one thing. ("The Kingdom is at hand", "it is neither here nor there", etc.) The primary difference is that the Judeo-Christian idea of the Kingdom is that it is entered into by entering into relationship with God, and obeying God's will. So when Jesus speaks of "entering the Kingdom" he's not talking about what you do after you buy the farm. Scriptures are very clear about the resurrection of the body. And it should be understood that discussion of resurrection happens in context of a polemic. The ideas of resurrection and afterlife didn't come about until very late in OT times. In NT times, there were two prevailing views. The Sadducees held the old view that the dead exist in Sheol (dust) a kind of shady existence that can't really even be called existence. The Pharisees held the newer idea that the dead would be resurrected fully in body and go on to an afterlife. The ideas of heaven and hell were really only just developing in that time. There is stronger development of ideas of heaven and hell in some of the apocryphal (non-canonical) literature of the early Christian church. We find in Peter's apocalypse, for example, a long (and very difficult to read!) discussion of hell and its torments. But there is also a suggestion that any person for whom a Christian prays will be admitted to heaven (in the afterlife sense). If Scripture is somewhat unclear about the afterlife, it is less clear about what is expected for salvation (whether salvation is seen as happening here and now, or in the afterlife). There are a lot of references to Christ as a "sacrificial lamb", which is a development on passages from the OT prophets. This view generally sees Christ's death as an atonement for all human sin, a kind of sacrifice "in place of" like the ram that appeared to Abraham to be sacrificed in place of his son. This theology of atonement must also be tempered, however, with a whole lot of other passages that call for repentance from sin. As well, throughout all of the OT and NT there are extraordinarily strong themes relating basic economic morality to salvation. The prophets are upheld as Luke's Gospel has Jesus bellow, "Woe to the rich!" Mary's prayer, also in Luke, praises God because he "Has filled the hungry with good things, and has sent the rich away empty." Matthew 25 suggests that redemption is found by feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, visiting the prisoner, etc. And likewise, in Matthew 25, those who turn their backs on the needy are condemned. Though Sam Harris cites Matthew 25 as "proof" that Christians believe that unbelievers are condemned to hell (Letter to a Christian Nation), this passage is actually nothing of the sort. After feeding the hungry, etc, the "saved" ask Jesus, "When did we see you [and serve you]?". After turning their backs on the hungry, etc, the "condemned" ask Jesus, "When did we see you [and fail to serve you]?" This suggests that people may very well unknowingly serve or oppose God's will. Belief is a non-sequiter in this passage. So do I believe that Rob is going to "hell"? I mean, he is an atheist, after all. My answer: "Beats me." If there is a hell, which is unclear, Rob may well escape it merely by virtue of his poverty, and his compassion to the poor. Or, if I take in the apocryphal literature of the Church traditions, Rob might be saved by the prayers of the people who care for him. Or he might fry. I might for that matter. The truth is, even though I've put all this effort into describing Scriptural views on heaven and hell, I really find this subject to be really very boring. Wondering what will happen to me after death is a lot like wondering what I'll eat for breakfast 50 years from now, or whether I'll be eating at all 50 years from now. It's pointless, shallow, and extraordinarily uninteresting. The here and the now are much more fascinating, imho. Am I being just? Do I love my neighbor? Do I love my enemy? Am I being faithful, or obedient, to my Redeemer? These are the really interesting questions to me. And the really challenging ones.
Next in the series: The Religion Thread, Part 2: The Meaning of Faith (or, the "Believe Harder!" thread.)
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Very nice thread Phil
Submitted by Norm on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 5:00pm.I love you very much Phil
Submitted by Rob Richards on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 5:06pm.The here and now part,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 5:14pm.Doing good deeds without any
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 5:32pm.From the Vatican II:The
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 5:26pm.I assume by "God" the Vatican makes allowance only for the traditional YHVH though others might take it to mean anyone who they believed to have been their Supreme Creator.
The website where I tracked this down, Religious Tolerance dot Org, also said:
Not completely inclusive, but better than what is often offered. Then again, there are plenty of Christian Denominations who don't give a rip what opinions come out of the Vatican.
There is a famous line of scripture that's very telling on whether good people who weren't Christian such as Anne Frank or Rob Richards is condemned:
Merwyn,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 5:32pm.Heh... :)But seriously
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 5:40pm.But seriously though: A lot of people will argue that the Bible shows that no matter how good a person is, if they refuse to accept Christ then they don't get salvation. Christ's line was uttered while He was bleeding on the cross; soldiers were throwing dice to divvy His clothes up, and all day long His own people succumbed to mob mentality - called Him the vilest of names, yelled and spit at Him, demanded His torture and murder, relished in the suffering He went through. Most likely it wasn't a case of Jerusalem being an evil town, it was otherwise good people being caught up in something ugly. If anything defines "refusing to accept Christ" I'd say it was the actions of that day.
If He calls for their forgiveness in rejecting Him, then it makes sense He's calling for your forgiveness too. And for all the soldiers on both sides of all conflicts.
With so many beautiful religions in the world...
Submitted by The Original Yoda on Sat, 01/05/2008 - 10:09pm....I just don't see how you can pick one.
In psychoanalysis, Carl Jung made it one of his main goals to return the person to their "home" religion. Christian...okay you go to church. Jewish...you go to synagog. etc...
...but I never could go back to plain old Christianity.
Krishna is very attractive and gives you what you ask for.
Mary is so pure and loving.
And who says "God" needs or has a personality? Maybe "God" wears many masks.
I like to meditate on that point from which "God" came. I've heard it called "ein soph" in Kabballah.
I call it the Tao.
"The Tao is called the Great Mother:
empty yet inexhaustible,
it gives birth to infinite worlds. It is always present within you.
You can use it any way you want."
#6 Tao Te Ching, Stephen Mitchell Translation
A couple more things...
"I believe in nothing. Every thing is sacred.
I believe in everything. Nothing is sacred." Tom Robbins said that.
I you love this religious stuff as much as I do, you gotta read Jung's "Answer To Job."
Consider this selection from ATJ:
"But what does man possess that God does not have? Because of his littleness, puniness, and defencelessness against the Almighty, he possesses, as we have already suggested, a somewhat keener consciousness based on self-reflection: he must, in order to survive, always be mindful of his impotence. God has no need of this circumspection, for nowhere does he come up against an insuperable obstacle that would force him to hesitate and hence make him reflect on himself. Could a suspicion have grown up in God that man possesses an infinitely small yet more concentrated light than Yahweh, possesses?"
May The Force Be With You!