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As well
Submitted by enpen on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 12:37am.If people care to give an explanation for their vote, I think that could be valuable as well.

My vote is yes, it should be decriminalized (at the least).
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
too keep it short
Submitted by PeaceCompass on Sat, 03/15/2008 - 12:04am.The separation of cannabis from 'the dealer' would be an improvement.
If those who want it can just grow it themselves, or trade with their friends, that would maintain a natural shunning of other substances and their carriers. Problem solved.
absolutely, but
Submitted by enpen on Sat, 03/15/2008 - 12:12am.Government's gotta get a cut. No moonshine mary jane. If a plant grew gasoline it'd be illegal.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
Quote of the week.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Sat, 03/15/2008 - 2:05am.Yes,
Submitted by JT on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 4:43am.nationwide.
"I de-clutch, you know." Juan Manuel Fangio when asked how he avoids flat-spotting his tires when he spins the car.
I wonder how much tax money
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Sat, 03/15/2008 - 12:45am.we'd save on law enforcement, incarceration, etc.
I've said for a long time, what stops this is the liquor lobby and the black market, who would stand to lose substantial money.
Yes,
Submitted by Sarah on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 6:25am.Above a quote from Norm Stamper
Quote above from The Wire's War on the Drug WarThe short answer: I agree
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 8:19am.The short answer: I agree with JT.
The long answer: Realistically, as long as you're not selling obscene amounts and are simply smoking a quantity suitable for an individual, I don't think any police department is going to kick down your door.
agreed
Submitted by enpen on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 8:45am.Realistically, as long as you're not selling obscene amounts and are simply smoking a quantity suitable for an individual, I don't think any police department is going to kick down your door.
I agree. And decriminalization on a local level wouldn't dismantle a nationwide network of black market distribution. However, Washington State does have a mandatory minimum sentence of 1 day along with fines for possession of any amount less than 40 grams and a landlord can evict a tenant for smoking even the most minute amount.
Big picture, it's a waste of resources, it fosters a black market and it puts police officers lives at risk because people are willing to defend the lucrative black market. Measures like decriminalization are more about taking small steps to counter this particular mistake of writing some people's morality into law. What I'd like to find out is if a decriminalization measure would have any hope of passing on a local level. Unfortunately I think the poll would be a better indicator if it were placed on The Olmpian's website, but I work with the tools I have at hand.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
Maxim has an article on
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 9:21am.Maxim has an article on medical marijuana in California in this month's issue.
Side note: Why do people write Maxim and Playboy off as "trash?" Granted, the majority of the content is seedy but usually there's one in-depth feature that would rival anything found in The Economist or U.S. News & World Report.
Pollack, Neal. Maxim. March 2008. "There Will Be Bud":
I just don't know the proper way to go about decriminalization, though. Alcohol causes a ridiculous amount of problems and - unfortunately - Cheech & Chong and Harold & Kumar are what many high school-aged people aspire to be in real life (note: all four characters are very funny).
It's easy for responsible people to sit around and say, "This should be decriminalized because we're contributing members." But what about the people who already struggle with making it in society?
they continue to struggle?
Submitted by enpen on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 12:56pm.I think the idea behind successful legislation and laws is that (supposedly) having a given law in effect is of less measurable harm than not having the law. I would love to see somebody prove that having marijuana illegal is less harmful to our society than having it legal. As it stands keeping it illegal provides more money to some really nasty people willing to take the chances inherent in a black market and costs our society hundreds of millions of dollars in court and incarceration (not to mention the continuing costs of funding the anti-marijuana advertising campaigns).
Re: Cheech, Chong, Harold and Kumar...what harm do they actually do? If marijuana makes some people lazy and silly, then what...we're saying it's against the law to be lazy and silly?
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
Re: Cheech, Chong, Harold
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 6:16pm.Funny as characters but not exactly the most productive members of society. I ran into plenty of people - I'm sure we all have - who just wanted to smoke and do nothing else.
And I'm not saying that marijuana is the cause. I think to a pretty large degree people are going to be non-contributing members of society regardless of whether or not they smoke; but aren't there a lot of problems already with alcohol being legalized?
It seems like maybe - maybe - we'd just be throwing more fuel to the fire.
Not saying any of this as what I believe in but more as trying to find reasoning for not decriminalizing so that - when all avenues have been traveled down - we can say "it should be decriminalized" and already have been through the questioning that would come up at a mainstream publication like The Olympian.
we're working with a false assumption
Submitted by enpen on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 11:28pm.Thanks to DARE this fallacy filtered into our education system in order to back up the previous moral driven fallacy. If the assertion is made that marijuana is a social liability then the burden of proof lies on that claim. Thus far I have seen zero quantifiable evidence that marijuana use is a social liability worthy of its stigma and penalties.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
And
Submitted by enpen on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 8:48am.Would somebody who thinks that it should remain a criminal offense please take a moment to share why?
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
Not what you wanted Jason
Submitted by Rob Richards on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 9:43am.Anyhow, pot. In the US we arrest 1.8 million people every year for drugs. 40% of those are for possession, usually tiny amounts. 40% of Americans say that pot should be taxed, controlled and regulated like alcohol.
We do not have a drug problem, we have a prohibition problem.
The biggest issue I see
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 11:03am.interstate commerce
Submitted by enpen on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 12:45pm.Unless the Feds can prove that it has a measurable affect upon interstate commerce (their catchall for meddling with State rights) then they can't do a thing about it. That's why every time you see decriminalization and medical efforts picking up steam you also see a dramatic increase in DEA funding for anti-marijuana propaganda in that state/city. Madison Wisconsin has had decriminalized possession of marijuana since the 70's and to my knowledge the DEA hasn't been able to touch the place or its people (outside of more false propaganda campaigns that is).
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
Are you sure about that?
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 1:58pm.The LA Times would disagree with you there.
The city move was widely applauded by medical marijuana activists who believe that having a solid set of rules will help prevent future city crackdowns and ensure that dispensaries remain open.
But state or local laws have no effect on federal activities.
Although voters in California approved the use of medical marijuana in 1996 and said users should not be subject to criminal prosecution, it remains illegal under federal law to possess, sell or cultivate marijuana and neither the federal nor state courts have resolved the matter.
Drug Enforcement Administration officers served a search warrant on facilities across Los Angeles County, including the California Patients Group in Hollywood, said DEA spokeswoman Sarah Pullen. The timing of the raid was not intended to coincide with the council vote, she said.
And how would the marijuana get here? Not unlike California, if Oly became the hub (which it won't) for marijuana, you will see the DEA here. Someone has to either grow it here, or get it here. Cultivation, or trafficking. Plus, just because it is legal through a city ordinance, does not make it legal through state law. Do you think WSP would think twice about arresting someone they pull over in Oly who has pot on them? Here's a link to the DEA website and their marijuana page.
The campaign to legitimize what is called "medical" marijuana is based on two propositions: that science views marijuana as medicine, and that DEA targets sick and dying people using the drug. Neither proposition is true. Smoked marijuana has not withstood the rigors of science – it is not medicine and it is not safe. DEA targets criminals engaged in cultivation and trafficking, not the sick and dying. No state has legalized the trafficking of marijuana, including the twelve states that have decriminalized certain marijuana use.
Here is a local story from the DEA marijuana bust news website
I think there are A LOT of hurdles that need to be taken into consideration before pot is somehow legalized in Oly. Just my personal opinion.
we're not communicating
Submitted by enpen on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 2:08pm.I didn't say it would make it legal outside of the state, I said that the DEA couldn't do anything about it unless they were able to show a measurable effect on interstate commerce. The reason why the DEA was able to go after a medical marijuana user in California is because they argued that the legal cultivation in the state (due to medical marijuana being legalized) affected interstate commerce by driving down the black market price of marijuana in other states due to an increased supply.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
You don't think the same thing would happen here?
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 2:16pm.Not that I don't believe your comment, but I wasn't aware of that need before the DEA could make a bust. Where is this information listed?
a summary and the case
Submitted by enpen on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 2:34pm.A summary and the actual precedent.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
So, I ask you Enpen
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 2:55pm.Held: Congress’ Commerce Clause authority includes the power to prohibit the local cultivation and use of marijuana in compliance with California law. Pp. 6—31. From the precedent decision.
Given those, and the quote from California's AG, But California Attorney General Bill Lockyer said that "seriously ill Californians will continue to run the risk of arrest and prosecution under federal law when they grow and or they use marijuana as medicine." do you really think that Olympia would be immune to the DEA? From what I'm reading Olympia would be an all-you-can-eat buffet for them. How hard would it be to fall into those guidelines?
I'm not trying to be a butt Enpen. I seriously wonder if it's practical for Olympia to do this though.
Edit: I needed a little bit of contrast. And to add a comment for Enpen
possession vs. growing
Submitted by enpen on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 4:07pm.If a city/state were to legalize the cultivation (like California did) then the argument of interstate commerce comes into effect. In places where possession is decriminalized (like Madison) then the connection would be even more tenuous and probably has a lot to do with why the DEA hasn't tried to do anything there outside of propaganda campaigns. I should have been more specific initially.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
ODB
Submitted by eelcozy on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 11:13am.word to your hummus
Submitted by chad360 on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 11:22am.The Pearl is in the Stone, and the Stone is in the River
>peace<
Decriminalize it
Submitted by security_six on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 11:53am.Nationwide. For all the arguments already presented. Prohibition didn't work in the 20's and it doesn't work today.
“How many more times are we going to cower under tables and chairs, whimpering like mindless dogs, thinking that someone else has the responsibility to save and protect us?” -Ted Nugent
Honest Abe said,
Submitted by hazzardus waste on Fri, 04/18/2008 - 2:57pm.Decriminalize it, tax it,
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 12:14pm.man
Submitted by enpen on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 1:24pm.Money coming in instead of going out...imagine that. And with more and more people giving up smoking cigarettes everywhere we're going to have to start coming up with some pretty creative solutions for dealing with the budget shortfalls that result from that loss of tax revenue.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
nobody ever o.d.ed off of pot
Submitted by hazzardus waste on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 1:23pm.Damn.
Submitted by Summerisle on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 6:00pm.Just so I'm perfectly clear
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 2:05pm.Legalize It
Submitted by Robert Whitlock on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 2:11pm.Aldo Leopold: "We abuse land because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect."
Hmmm...
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 2:18pm."...effected interstate commerce by driving down the black market price of marijuana in other states due to an increased supply."
I'd like to see where they actually suggest that as a reason. Sounds doobie-ous to me. I don't believe that non-monopolistic activities that influence market prices across state lines are a vioilation of interstate commerce.
My head isn't digesting today
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 2:23pm.Are you saying the probable cause for going in to make the bust could easily be made up or distorted in favor of the DEA and their cause? If so, I heartily agree. If this is not what you were going for, I apologize :(
EDIT: I can't spell probable. Long day. Pardon me.
I still don't know how to use the "reply" button
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 2:31pm.Thanks...now I see what you mean
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 2:55pm.broadening Congressional reach
Submitted by enpen on Sat, 03/15/2008 - 12:58am.Wickard v. Filburn is the precedent for modern Commerce Clause interpretation and was the "subsistence wheat farming" case referenced in Norm's comment. For those who don't like/have time to read case law, Oyez gives a summary.
The decision in Gonzalez v. Raich was somewhat of a surprise to a lot of people as the Rehnquist court had been slowly reasserting State rights before that decision.
Edit: I added the Gonzales v. Raich bit.
"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
No daylight between me and JT on this one
Submitted by Mike on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 5:40pm.How do you define "non-contributing members of society"?
Submitted by Reeechard on Fri, 03/14/2008 - 8:00pm.The Fire Inside - "Funny as characters but not exactly the most productive members of society."
I dunno 'bout that one. Remember that Kumar was actually a medical genius and Harold was a successful corporate cubicle worker who grew the gonads to tell his slacker manipulative co-workers to take a hike [clean version].
Cheech [very successful actor and comedian] seems to have never suffered any long-term lasting effects from its use. Tommy Chong is an amazing musician and has spawned [musically/artistically/literally] wonderful things.
Seems all four could be seen as both successful non-slackers or promoters of vice, depending on how you look at it. Still, we're talking about characters that are/were formulaic/counter culture icons. Icons representing a celebration of universal archetypes, hence the popularity.
Who doesn't love it when apparent underdogs stick it to "the man"?
I agree with Rob - What about decriminizarion and regulation, just like cigarettes? That could fill the coffers of alot of needed public service and education programs.
Are there any statistics about how Holland and other countries where it has been legalized have seen a reduction/increase in crimes associated with the possession/cultivation/distribution of it?
Word to all the Middle Aged Ants.
Mmmm, enchiladas...I surrender on Harold, Kumar
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Sun, 03/16/2008 - 4:55am.I surrender on Harold, Kumar and Cheech. But Chong? Tommy Chong is a burnout in real life!
I remember a professor - he taught a Chinese history class that was easily one of the most difficult in my major - who said that people can still smoke marijuana and be productive members of society versus coke or meth.
I'm just trying to raise as many objections as possible because people - reasonable, everyday members of society-type people - are negatively labeled by the mainstream when the idea of legalization of marijuana is brought up.
I think the fear is that it's just something else for people to act irresponsible with. There's already enough problems with alcohol.
Clearly something has to be adjusted in regard to how marijuana is treated. I'm just trying to sort out what the answer should be.
Sorry this is devolving into a ramble. I agree with everything said about decriminalization, I just struggle with the best way I should convey that belief to people I talk to on a day-to-day basis (although I will note that my NCOIC, a Corporal who was raised as a Mennonite, believes marijuana should be legalized).
OK, Who Voted More Than Once
Submitted by JstPlnOnry on Sat, 03/15/2008 - 4:24pm.because I've never seen 81 different people posting around here!
"A point of view is only a view from a point..." ~ Unknown
Thousands of people use the site.
Submitted by Rob Richards on Sat, 03/15/2008 - 4:38pm.JPO,
Submitted by JT on Sat, 03/15/2008 - 5:39pm.It's cuz there are lots of dopers in Oly. :-)
"I de-clutch, you know." Juan Manuel Fangio when asked how he avoids flat-spotting his tires when he spins the car.
a positive update for the 85%ers
Submitted by enpen on Fri, 04/18/2008 - 10:04am.This is beyond Olympia but would obviously have ramifications here. Representative Barney Frank (D-MA) has introduced a bill to Congress."
In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe
Daily Camera (CO): CU’s
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Sun, 04/20/2008 - 8:43pm.Daily Camera (CO): CU’s 4/20 pot smoke-out draws crowd of 10,000: