Time to end the boycott at Ralph's?

I was wondering if Janet had a response to this letter, published in the Olympian this morning.

Time to end the boycott at Ralph's

While shopping at Ralph's Thriftway recently, I learned that the boycott of the store is doing significant financial damage to this locally owned, community-minded business.

Ralph's and Bayview, which is also owned by the Stormans family, are being boycotted because of the owners' refusal to allow the Plan B contraceptive to be sold by their pharmacy. Local pro-choice organizations began this boycott last summer.

I supported the boycott initially because I share the belief that women and their doctors -- not pharmacists -- should choose what medications we take. But I believe it is long past time for the boycott to end. The point has been made, and the policy decision has moved to the State Pharmacy Board (and possibly to the Legislature).

So there is simply no longer a good reason to harm Ralph's, which is a neighborhood treasure, or to punish a pillar of our community for his willingness to take a stand on an issue which he feels just as deeply about as we do.

Jill Severn, Olympia

Comments

I have spent time looking into it Janet

after the last time you did your rant. It can chemically abort. Is it designed too, no. Does it routinely, no. But many doctors, and professionals say they can't say it will never chemically abort.

So with all the BC options out there, Storman's chose not to stock this one. I support his decision. And I can't support yours. Even if I wasn't pro-life, I couldn't support your decision, because you have LOTS of access to Plan B here I'm reading. So now I believe this is more about being anti-Christian/Muslim/Jewish, than it is about "reproductive freedom".

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.

"In war there is no substitute for victory" "It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it" -- General Douglas MacArthur

Here is a more direct

Here is a more direct reading.  Read #3.

Another.

Two examples are probably not enough for you, just like the last time I gave you evidence, you got real quiet.  I would expect the same this time too. 

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.

"In war there is no substitute for victory" "It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it" -- General Douglas MacArthur

Oh hey, I am boycotting tom

Oh hey, I am boycotting tom cruise too, should I feel sorry for his weird self and go rent MI:3?

Biology of Reproduction - Not Always Cut and Dry

It's a complicated matter, and not black and white. Even after fertilization and implantation in the uterus, the resultant tissue mass, which is referred to as a blastocyst, is not considered to be fetal, by many experts, for a period of around two weeks.

And then there is that whole matter of Mary becoming pregnant with baby Jesus, even though she was a virgin. Could someone please explain that one?

Don't insult my intelligence.

In the Course of Events

Well Normy,

I believe human life begins at conception. Stopping implantation in the uterus is effectively the same as an abortion, killing the unborn child.

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.

"In war there is no substitute for victory" "It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it" -- General Douglas MacArthur

well, they could treat shoplifters a bit better...

you know, their whole entrapment and extortion racket could use some improvement. It's screwed over hundreds of local low-income people over the past few years.

Any "anti-abortion"

Any "anti-abortion" "pro-capital-punishment" advocates in the room! ha ha

In the Course of Events

Individuals acting in concert

“And why in the hell does it have to be a big production? What's wrong with just saying, "Well, I don't agree with that decision so I'm no longer shopping there," as an INDIVIDUAL?

"Go, Nigel! Go!" -- David St. Hubbins

It is not my intention to stir things up

But this can't pass unrecorded.

I noticed on Ralph's readerboard this ad directly under the Gatorade sale:

"Hiring Pharmacist Top Salary"

Wouldn't you love to sit in on that interview?  

 

the bottom line

I wonder what the bottom line at the Olympia thriftways is, and exactly how much this boycott has upset said bottom line.

In the Course of Events

It's interesting to read

It's interesting to read what I - and others - wrote almost a year and a half ago.

I have to wonder about Jill

She was recently shopping at Ralphs even though she supported the boycott and a woman's right to her own body.  Jill thinks that Stormans is a wonderful community asset.  I think I'm smelling a rat.  It reminds me of those people that call Rush Limbaugh that start with "i was a life long Democrat, voted for Roosevelt all 4 times and blah blah blah."  Yes, something is fishy, Jill supports the boycott but doesn't understand how a boycott works.  She is unfamiliar with the power of the boycott throughout history.  Like the so-called former Democrats that call Rush Limbaugh, I'm afraid that Jill is nothing but a troll.  I'll go further and say she is just sucking up to her conservative overlords.

"I would make it impossible for the covetous and avaricious to utterly impoverish the poor. The rich can take care of themselves."
^@^
"I would make it impossible for the covetous and avaricious to utterly impoverish the poor. The rich can take care of themselves."
^@^

I think some might be

I think some might be reading too deep.  It's just a lure.  Maybe one will bite.  It's not a negotiation, it's a rattle and it's making noise.

The reach is far greater than an unemployed pharmacist driving by -- none of us are pharmacists but we're talking about it.  Why?  Maybe we know a few in our circle of friends.  Six must work in advertising.

huge thread

wow

So, E & I live real, real close to Ralph's and it has been hard to stick to our guns with the boycott...

...got us to the Co-Op though.

Is walking to/from groceries more important that showing solidarity?

 

 

They've used the board to solicit pharmacists before

nt

Why advertise that way?

I don't have any trouble understanding why Ralph's would have trouble hiring and retaining pharmacists, but what mystifies me is why they advertise in such an unorthodox manner -- just in case an unemployed pharmacist is driving by?

They have suffered

They have suffered too much for their obedience to God.

Maybe they're so desperate

Maybe they're so desperate to hire that anyone who's ever sold a pill on the street could qualify.

Red meat is NOT bad for you. Now blue-green meat, THAT'S bad for you!
Tommy Smothers

Caught my attention

Companies usually save salary negotiation for a private meeting.

The Anonymous ThurstonBlogger

I see 'em advertise

 That way for all their open positions.  Makes sense really, a lot of folks drive by that place.  Free advertising...

"I think there was something funny in that hippie."--Lrrr ruler of Omicron Persei 8

"Whoa, I feel like I'm flying"-- Lrrr, shortly after eating the hippie.

 

 

This is a non political tag line and cannot be linked up through a twisted thought process to an obscure company making specialty tools.  

What works for hiring food

What works for hiring food service workers should work for hiring pharmacists, right? I'm just surprised that pharmacists who want to exercise their right to use their conscience aren't flooding Ralph's with applications!

Absolutely not.

Absolutely not.

So if you had

A giant billboard along a major road you wouldn't use it? 

"I think there was something funny in that hippie."--Lrrr ruler of Omicron Persei 8

"Whoa, I feel like I'm flying"-- Lrrr, shortly after eating the hippie.

 

 

This is a non political tag line and cannot be linked up through a twisted thought process to an obscure company making specialty tools.  

I'd like to read the study that says Plan B aborts

Because everything I've read supports the opposite view.  Please direct me toward your (I can't believe I'm typing it again) evidence. 

Errr, correct me if I'm

Errr, correct me if I'm wrong, it's been awhile since jr. high health class, but for a woman to become pregnant the egg has to implant onto the inside of the uterus. The second site you posted said, "Once implantation has occurred and pregnancy is established, Plan B cannot cause an abortion."

It sounds like it can't cause an abortion. Just because the egg is fertilized doesn't mean buttkiss. Women expel eggs monthly, I'm sure they are fertilized once in awhile, it doesn't mean they were pregnant at the time.

Have you ever seen "Bruce

Have you ever seen "Bruce Almighty"? Where he like wiggles his nose, or whatever, and jennifer annistons boobs become huge overnight? Same concept.

So you are against the birth

So you are against the birth control pill as well?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birth_control_pill

Scoll down to the "Contraception vs abortion debate" about halfway down the page.

I'm not trying to be an a$$, just trying to get some understanding. If you'd like to board the "Let's be pissed at Norm train." please take a number and have a seat, there are limited spots available. Any complaints please refer them to the conductor, http://www.olyblog.net/user/operagirl .

Ralph's sexism may be illegal

It seems that the legal process is rather slow.  But Ralph's is vulnerable to complaints of discrimination based on gender in a place of public accommodation.  Check back in, oh, say FIVE YEARS, to see how that plays out.  Another nice thing about a boycott is that it is very immediate. 

Crenshaw's B.S. Detector

Yeah, I second what Crenshaw said. And when we hand out OlyBlog titles of honor, Cren deserves one noting his incredible b.s. detector abilities.

Takes skill and bravery to look behind the curtain.

Yeah, sometimes I wish I

Yeah, sometimes I wish I could tell someone to give me $200 or else I'd call the police. And while we're at it if Kevin Stormans is such a compassionate Christian he should see to it that his employees don't crack jokes about the cops tazing people to death.

But wherefore thou alone? Wherefore with thee Came not all hell broke loose?
John Milton

Red meat is NOT bad for you. Now blue-green meat, THAT'S bad for you!
Tommy Smothers

That doesn't shock me. St.

That doesn't shock me. St. Pete's is a Catholic hospital. I'm sure the board still considers "birth control" to be anti-catholic. Last I checked St. Pete's pharmacy carried bc pills, I'm not sure how that makes sense but eh.

Well

since you have a bit of myopia apparently, look at this post.

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.

"In war there is no substitute for victory" "It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it" -- General Douglas MacArthur

How can I be angry with my wingman

even though this is the second time you have thrown me in front of the bus, sort of, and TFI did once as well. Maybe I will have to undergo the lobotomy and become a progressive. :)

You have changed my opinion there Normy, yup you have, I have fallen for your logic. The pill is out too!!

Man don't tell Janet B, she is losing reproductive rights left and right.

Seriously, yes the pill is out. My understanding of the pill was that it prevented ovulation. If there is a possiblity that a fertilized egg would be destroyed by the use of the pill, then it goes the way of the dodo bird for me. Life begins at conception, and synthetic interference with that is tantamount to abortion.

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.

"In war there is no substitute for victory" "It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it" -- General Douglas MacArthur

he should see to it that his

he should see to it that his employees don't crack jokes about the cops tazing people to death.

This may shock you, but high-profile incidents generally draw jokes from people. A lot of people joke about O.J. Simpson and Rodney King, for instance.

Seeing as how the mentioned taser incident was fairly high-profile in Olympia, it would seem natural that people joke about it (especially when those people work at the establishment where the incident took place).

I've put seasonal work in for both the City of Olympia and State of Washington (and worked at Hollywood Video). In each work environment (especially Hollywood Video), comments and jokes were made which would horrify most of the people on OlyBlog.

For instance, at Hollywood Video you can put notes about each customer. It's supposed to be used for when there are too many late fees, whether a customer called/was called back and so forth. One woman would always come in and complain that her disc didn't work, attempting to get a free rental every time. We added the nickname "Free Rentals" to her account, between her first and last name. Another customer looked like a character off of "Space Ghost Coast to Coast," and I almost started laughing when I opened up his account because the note just said the character's name in all capital letters with a million exclamation points after.

At any rate, it's not uncommon for employees to joke about things that take place in their place of work, no matter how "bad" the incident may have been.

Sometimes bc is prescribed

Sometimes bc is prescribed as a hormonal treatment. I'm assuming that's the exception to the rule. My ex, who works there, wasn't able to get her bc through the job's insurance.

But wherefore thou alone? Wherefore with thee Came not all hell broke loose?
John Milton

Red meat is NOT bad for you. Now blue-green meat, THAT'S bad for you!
Tommy Smothers

This makes me think of that

This makes me think of that commercial from a couple years ago. I forget the product, but they used just a snippit of Creedence Clearwater Revival's song Fortunate Son, and the way they did it made it look like the song was a Good Ol' Red-White-and-Blue Patriotic song when it was anything but. I wondered what the CCR men thought of t.

I don't mean to be flippant, and I certainly don't expect you to answer a personal question of this nature, but have you ever had sex without hoping for a pregnancy, or had it in such a manner that you knew conception was impossible or improbabe? I only ask because your arguments are starting to lean towards the "Every Sperm is Sacred" slant.

But wherefore thou alone? Wherefore with thee Came not all hell broke loose?
John Milton

Red meat is NOT bad for you. Now blue-green meat, THAT'S bad for you!
Tommy Smothers

Ok, because I thought I had

Ok, because I thought I had remembered you typing that you weren't against birth control, but your definition above had me doubting what I had read. I'm never one for throwing people in front of a bus, but I've disagreed with folks that I like on more than one occasion. Depending on their ability to accept differences the outcome becomes interesting.

Yeah, not being female I've

Yeah, not being female I've never run into that. Maybe I'll call up HR and ask about a vasectomy.

You may wish to have your

You may wish to have your spouse re-check. The sterilization isn't considered a "necessary" expense, but I was just told that under my plan (pretty basic) I can be on bc pills or the depo shot and both would be covered.

She's actually been my ex

She's actually been my ex for five years, and if things have changed I'm sure she'd be well aware of it. But thanks anyways.

 

But wherefore thou alone? Wherefore with thee Came not all hell broke loose?
John Milton

Red meat is NOT bad for you. Now blue-green meat, THAT'S bad for you!
Tommy Smothers

I think my eyesight is better than yours, Olycop

Squint a little, and maybe you can discern the difference between "ACTS PRIMARILY BY" [stopping the release of an egg] and "MAY" [prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the womb].  The FDA and Barr pharmaceuticals don't use the word "MAY" because they're polite; they use it because they want to be accurate, and Plan B has not been proven to prevent either fertilization or implantation. 

Gee whiz, Norm!

I thought I was going to have to make that argument myself!  Thanks, sister!

Sister? Christ on a cracker

Sister? Christ on a cracker this has been a long damn week.

Oh, c'mon!

Being a sister is great!  Based on your recent post, I nominate you as a participant in our next consciousness raising session.  You're gonna love it!  Just promise not to tell the guys what goes on.

That's not going to fly,

That's not going to fly, because I'm willing to bet I'm not the only Christian who supports the boycott. And just to be clear, by "Christian" I don't mean born white and middle-class, I mean accepting that Christ was the Son of God who died to pay mankind's penalty for the original sin. It means I do my best not to pass judgement. Boycotting is not passing judgement, it's making a choice. I haven't made any personal comments against the Stormans.

I've gleaned that you consider yourself a Christian. You've mentioned before praying for the Stormans. That's admirable. You suggested in another response that a pharmacist supplying a brochure on sexual responsibility would be as good as providing Plan B. If I've misread your intent I'll gladly eat my words but if you're suggesting that someone who made a mistake should be forced to live with the consequences, even if there was a means to keep it from happening, then do you pray for the unwanted child who's automatically going to start life at a disadvantage? Or will you just patiently wait until they're old enough to arrest and lock up?

But wherefore thou alone? Wherefore with thee Came not all hell broke loose?
John Milton

Red meat is NOT bad for you. Now blue-green meat, THAT'S bad for you!
Tommy Smothers

But why should your

But why should your religious beliefs be imposed upon others who do not share your faith, or as oddly as it seems, share your faith but interpret it completely differently?

Getting to the heart of the "Where does life begin" issue, there are aspects to humanity that make us special. It's not the fact that we divide cells and grow. The grass under our feet does that. It's not that we have these parts there and those parts there. It's not our chromosomes that we think of when we think of human life. It's our consciousness, our feelings, our capacity for rational thought, our ability to perceive and process the world around us, yadda yadda.

There is absolutely nothing in any just-fertilized egg that is comparable to any of those things which make us truly human.

http://wallycuddeford.livejournal.com
http://wallynotorious.livejournal.com

MAY

Both of those sites (which are not studies, btw) say that Plan B "MAY" inhibit implantation.  The word "MAY" is used because Plan B has not been PROVEN to inhibit implantation.  You DO have to present more convincing evidence than that. You MAY not be able to find any.

Does this mean you'll refuse

Does this mean you'll refuse to eat at Bagel Brothers since, as a Jewish establishment, they don't sell bacon or ham? They're not selling it for moral reasons.

And before any smart-ass asks me how that's different from Stormans, the owners at Bagel Bros aren't telling their customers that they're wrong for not following the Mosaic law.

But wherefore thou alone? Wherefore with thee Came not all hell broke loose?
John Milton

Red meat is NOT bad for you. Now blue-green meat, THAT'S bad for you!
Tommy Smothers

Merwyn

First, Christ died for all of ALL our sins, not just the original sin.

As far as the scenario you list, I believe we all have to accept responsibility for our mistakes, and accept the consequenses of our good and bad decisions. That's life.

Let's turn your question up a bit. You consider yourself a Christian. When does human life begin? Are you ok with abortion? I believe it occurs at conception, so preventing implantation is a de facto abortion.

The disadvantaged child you talk about is an orphan I'm guessing. First, there is a large shortage for new born kids. Such a shortage, parents that want for a child and can't conceive, go to other countries to adopt. So an "unwanted" child, with a little responsible prep-work, will be assured of a home. But many orphaned kids have been successful in life too, so I don't buy into that an unwanted child will be a crook.

I can tell you, like I have said here before, I'm not anti-birthcontrol, I'm not for killing a child.

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.

"In war there is no substitute for victory" "It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it" -- General Douglas MacArthur

Both of those sites (which

Both of those sites (which are not studies, btw) say that Plan B "MAY" inhibit implantation. The word "MAY" is used because Plan B has not been PROVEN to inhibit implantation.

U.S. Centers for Disease Control: Surgeon General's Warning on Cigarette Use:

SURGEON GENERAL’S WARNING: Smoking Causes Lung Cancer, Heart Disease, Emphysema, and May Complicate Pregnancy.

SURGEON GENERAL’S WARNING: Smoking by Pregnant Women May Result in Fetal Injury, Premature Birth, and Low Birth Weight.

Smokeless Tobacco Warnings:

WARNING: This product may cause mouth cancer.

WARNING: This product may cause gum disease and tooth loss.

And if anyone hasn't seen "Thank You for Smoking," go rent it immediately.

At any rate, if the government is using "may" in regard to whether or not tobacco is bad for you, I imagine they're going to use it pretty liberally for everything else.

Not proof one way or the other, but I wouldn't rest my case on the use of "may."

I've actually never eaten

I've actually never eaten there. Not out of any moral conflict. It just never occured to me to eat there. One of my favorite restaurants in Seattle is both vegan and kosher, and regularly inspected by their local rabbinim. Great food. Also, most restaurants that serve any kind of animal product make me nervous, and if I don't trust the establishment I won't go there. My wife can tell you all about that. There are relatively few businesses that I do conduct business with, but I'm sure there are some that are run by people that adhere to doctrines or beliefs I don't agree with.

Storman is using his beliefs to not provide the means for women to manage their own bodies and healthcare at his business. That sort of overt action is distasteful to me. It's his prerogative to do so, as it's mine not to shop there because of it. I did long suffer their Inspiration Center which I find offensive, but there are a lot of Hallmark cards that are offensive as well, and Fred Meyer carries them. In fairness, it bothers me that Fred Meyer is now owned by Kroger, although I haven't figured out if that means they are a greater evil for it.

The comparison of food and women's healthcare is a specious argument. It has been intimated in another post: "Where do you draw the line?" I draw my line on a case by case basis. In this case I don't agree with Storman's unwillingness to provide a healthcare product to women that is effective in its purpose of helping prevent unwanted pregnancies.

And why would someone be a smart-ass to ask you to clarify a difference? Maybe the answer is obvious and I'm just being obtuse. It happens.

"Go, Nigel! Go!" -- David St. Hubbins

Your argument is not convincing, TFI

In the case of smoking and fetal birth weight, for instance, the preponderance of evidence tends to argue that there is a causal relationship.  But in the case of Plan B, the scientific evidence is more suggestive that Plan B does NOT affect implantation.

(Here's a little light reading for you: 
However, Barr Pharmaceuticals wants to protect itself against potential lawsuits by women who complain that no one told them Plan B might have prevented a fertilized egg from implanting. (No one will ever be able to prove that a particular fertilized egg failed to implant because of Plan B, but the lawsuits could be a nuisance, anyway.) Barr, and the FDA, are using the word "MAY" to cover their asses, as it is used in many circumstances, by many entities, under very different circumstances, for the very same purpose.  Its beauty is in its vagueness.  It may mean one thing in one instance, it may mean another thing in another.  It doesn't mean Plan B actually prevents implantation.  You'll need to find better proof than that.  Happy hunting. 

Killing a child

It's really hard for me to see taking a pill to suppress ovulation as killing a child.  Even if it does, although it has not been proven, occasionally cause a fertilized egg to fail to implant (which happens frequently without the use of Plan B, BTW, just as a natural process), it's really hard for me to see letting a fertilized egg fall out of one's body rather than implant as "killing a child."  Don't you think you're overdramatizing a bit?

I agree that people need to

I agree that people need to accept responsibility and consequences for their actions. But what you're saying, where a woman shouldn't be allowed to take Plan B to PREVENT a pregnancy because her legs weren't crossed the night before, is no different then saying a child shouldn't be given Ipecac but instead be made to accept the consequence of their drinking poison.

But wherefore thou alone? Wherefore with thee Came not all hell broke loose?
John Milton

Red meat is NOT bad for you. Now blue-green meat, THAT'S bad for you!
Tommy Smothers

huh?

"First, there is a large shortage for new born kids"

Yes, damnit! You poor people need to start making more babies for our rich (read: morally upright) citizens to raise! As of the 2000 Census the Adoption and Foster Care Analysis and Reporting System through our U.S. Bureau of Health estimated approximately 117,000 children are waiting and available for adoption in the U.S. So, unless I'm mistaken, the basis of your argument is that all life is sacred and we need to protect all unborn life all the way to birth, but after birth, you're s.o.l.?

"Anybody who doesn't know that politics is crime has got a few screws loose."

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

You're right, Merwyn

You're by no means the only Christian who supports the boycott.  I can think of at least five others who have been on the picket line, and there are many other boycott supporters whose religious beliefs are unknown to me; I'm sure there are many Christians among them. 

Given the fact that even the Pill

may inhibit implantation, and Plan B is a heavier dose of hormones than the pill, the risk of interference with implantation is higher. Will it absolutely do it? Don't know, but don't care either. I don't believe in killing kids, you and others here are ok with killing them.

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.

"In war there is no substitute for victory" "It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it" -- General Douglas MacArthur

Who's you?

Is this directed at me?  Are you saying I'm okay with killing kids because I think it's okay to use hormonal birth control? 

BTW, your reasoning that the risk of implantation is higher with Plan B is faulty.  Since it's not even known if  levonorgestrel interferes with implantation, it's not logical to say that a higher dose is associated with a higher risk.  And even if it did interfere with implantation, it doesn't necessarily follow that a higher dose is associated with a higher risk.  It might be a good idea to glance at the medical literature regarding how progestin functions in the body before you foray into the realm of biogical analysis.  Take a look at this: 

You bet I did

I had a letter written by 8:30 a.m.!  Thanks for bringing this up, Rob! 

Here's what I sent the Olympian:

Discriminate and it will hurt

Businesses that discriminate against women should, and will, suffer financially.  Many people in the Olympia community feel strongly about women’s rights, and are continuing to refuse to patronize a store that will not respect these rights.  If Ralph’s is truly a community-minded business, why are the owners failing to respond to the message sent by its former shoppers?

Where a retail business is concerned, consumers hold power.  We can’t rely on the Pharmacy Board or the legislature to sort this out.  In the Civil Rights movement of the 1960’s, when Nashville businesses were boycotted because of their discrimination against African Americans, it was the grass-roots movement that effected change, not an institutional body.  Many businesses suffered – until the policy of segregation was changed. 

The time to end the boycott of Ralph’s is when Ralph’s changes its discriminatory policy.  Ralph’s policy is based on a fallacy: that emergency contraception is an abortifacient.  Even a cursory examination of the facts shows that this is not true.  Emergency contraception (Plan B) works just as ordinary hormonal birth control does, by suppressing ovulation.  

When the owners of Ralph’s learn to distinguish between RU486 (the “abortion pill”) and emergency contraception, and stock all forms of birth control, the boycott will end and shoppers who care about women’s rights will return.  While Ralph’s chooses to ignore both the facts about emergency birth control, and the feelings of the community, the boycott will continue, and Ralph's will continue to lose money. 

Did you finish your homework young lady?

I know you were out carousing and cavorting until all hours last night.

I'm proud of you for sticking to your guns, it's important.

"Everybody who imitates Christ is a fake Jesus." –Alan Watts

Shhhh! don't tell anyone

Shhhh! don't tell anyone about that Rob. Guns are bad!!!!

Yes, Dad, I did my homework

I just finished everything about a half an hour ago.  Ya-hoo!  I think carousing sharing ideas with my fellow Olybloggers was just what I needed. 

Can women get Plan B without a prescription?

I heard a while back that the federal government would stop requiring a prescription for Plan B.  Has that been done?  Can women go to pharmacies other than Thriftway and buy it without a doctor's note?

Yes

Barr Pharmaceuticals began shipping Plan B packaged for over-the-counter sales in mid-November.  Women 18 and over can now obtain a dose without a prescription.  However, distribution is still restricted to pharmacies, and women must present ID in order to get a dose.  All major national drug store chains have announced they will stock Plan B. 

I'm Still Boycotting

Stormans ought to realize that they are out of line with the values of the community. Women's rights take priority over the thriftway pity-pot.

In the Course of Events

Sad that a local business is dying

but essentially they dug their own grave. Maybe things have changed but I'm still left with a sour taste in my mouth and can't bring myself to go there.

My problem wasn't that it

My problem wasn't that it wasn't stocked, my problem was the reason Storman gave. He said he was drawing a moral line.

Contraception is not immoral (even as a Catholic I believe this.) Utilizing an emergency treatment after an accident or assault is not immoral. Even if the woman was drunk and irresponsible to begin with would the counter-protesters rather there be an abortion or a possibly mistreated unwanted child?

Speaking of which, if Plan B truly was an abortion pill I'd be on Storman's side. But it's not, and he needs to figure that out once and for all.

Lastly, in response to the orignal letter, the point may have been made, but Ralph's Thriftway is standing firm. That's their right. But that means they're willing to take the financial hardship. So be it.

 

But wherefore thou alone? Wherefore with thee Came not all hell broke loose?
John Milton

Red meat is NOT bad for you. Now blue-green meat, THAT'S bad for you!
Tommy Smothers

Boycotting is Free Speech..

Boycotting is Free Speech..

Considering and Reconsidering

We all know my views on plan B. BUT I have noted another problem in the community. Prompt service for the sick and elderly. Respectful service for the low income. Ralph's HAS always catered to those and I know they do a good job. I suggest the owner just put a sign in his window advertising NO PLAN B and leave it at that. He could annotate his advertising. But it would just send an honest message that the PLAN B contraceptives are not available in his business.

But we have another community issue related to pharmacies. Poor service for the low income, seniors, and sick people waiting in line! Arguing with pharmacists and dosages and how and when to pick things up is NOT MY CUP OF TEA. If it happens again I may just write a formal complaint.

All pharmacies need a couple of simple accomodations for their customers:

  • CHAIRS in a comfortable waiting area with magazines beside them
  • A padded bench or feel faint couch
  • A RESTROOM, clean, well lit, well tended.
  • Triage on refills so that the most ill and those waiting are tended to first, particularly for paper prescriptions. We should also consider networking pharmacies and have things delivered to the place where the person is, instead of sending sick people running around!
  • Scales with blood pressure and pulse-ometers on it.
  • For hospital discharges, extended hours and a hospital pharmacy are probably the best way to go. Just send people home with their prescriptions!

Now I've used a lot of pharmacies in our community and down in Centralia. I've used them with other people and I've used them for myself. So I have a recommendation. If you don't want to go to Ralph's I suggest Rite Aide. They are absolutely great. They are prompt, caring, and considerate. They handle lots of medicare part D plans. They meet all the criteria I listed above and they are staffed with caring people who are willing to call cabs and make sure they get there!  

Just my humble opinion. But Ralph's and Rite Aide ARE my two most positive experiences with pharmacies in Olympia. I am sure you guys have more. A lot of places compete based on price. Price is not the only issue. Service is the issue. Accomodations. Willingness to be helpful and go that extra mile for a person who is miserable.

There's a simple test here and its just like the one you all used for plan B. Get a paper prescription and send a person who looks elderly and low income around to different places. I can clue you privately on a couple of mistakes to make with that prescription. Hehehehe. I can also clue you on what to make the person look like. But we need to test the service as well as what people sell!

I'd love to help but the problem is I AM feeling better. I might also be a little too notorious for this mission. No I think some other people need to do this. Let good old Crusty really write and rest and feel better. But good old Crusty has a way of remembering errors that get prescriptions kicked back and situations where patients were turned away. Shall we call those TEST CASES. And good old Crusty knows lots and lots of doctors who would love to participate in this plan. She can tell you who they are.

Gotta run.

Here we go again, reverse

Here we go again, reverse Mafia is alive and well in Olympia!  Did you know I can find Plan B at several stores in Olympia, Lacey, and Tumwater?  Easy to find, too!  But, I can't find Reunite Lambrusco at Safeway.  I do find it at Ralph's and Bayview.  I asked Safeway to carry it but to no avail.  Hmm, maybe I should call for a boycott?  I mean, who are they to decide what I can buy in their store.

I went to the Ford dealership the other day to buy a Chevy and they said I should go to a Chevy lot.  I couldn't believe they didn't have what I wanted!  Oh my...

You guys are kidding yourself into thinking this is important.  It's not.  At the end of the day, the world still turns, people still shop, and the sun rises again.  What do you hope to accomplish?  If the current stance holds policy review and they don't stock Plan B, you will never shop with Stormans owned businesses again.  You aren't hurting the Stormans family, you know that right?  You are hurting the teenage bagger who has to be let go, or the journeyman level clerk who is unaffordable @ 20+ dollars an hour.  And, while you blame Storman's decision for these scenarios, you have the power to restore the loss and walk away with your head held high knowing you were a better person for having done so.

But, I know that these comments fall on deaf ears - time and time again.  Well, I for one continue to shop there and on occasion even make a special trip just for the donuts!  Less for you, more for me.  Enjoy Safeway and Top Foods.

Here we go again, reverse

Here we go again, reverse Mafia is alive and well in Olympia!

From a pure market perspective, a boycott is the only way a collection of individuals can send a message to a business that they do not approve of policy or practice.

The problem I have with the premise of the boycott (and we've gone over all of this at length. Hopefully we're not headed to another 100-post thread) is:

1. Obtaining Plan B (or any other contraceptive) is not a "right." I have no "right" to obtain Viagra, for instance.

2. Not only is there a boycott taking place, but there has been an active effort to encourage government to step in and force Ralph's and Bayview to carry a certain product.

The example I used previously (since both the medicine and liquor are regulated by the state) is that this is akin to boycotting a bar and petitioning government to step in should an establishment refuse to carry Carlsburg beer.

Did you know I can find Plan B at several stores in Olympia, Lacey, and Tumwater?

This is another complaint I have about all of this, also. I could at least understand why there would be a "need" for Ralph's to carry Plan B if it was the only game in town. The fact of the matter, however, is that it is not.

You are hurting the teenage bagger who has to be let go, or the journeyman level clerk who is unaffordable @ 20+ dollars an hour.

This could be where it gets interesting. If/when people start losing their jobs over the boycott, I think you'll see a turn in public sentiment.

It just strikes me as a

It just strikes me as a horrible way to get your point across.  Must you make your feelings so known that real monetary loss is the result?  Job loss, service degradation, etc.  It is not productive, but it is certainly your right.  We all have our convictions.  What troubles me is the effort that goes into boycotting businesses in Olympia.  It's not just Stormans.  There's a call out there to boycott all downtown businesses that support the ordinances on the table.  It's a gross form of manipulation.  Again, I understand you have every right to do so and know you will continue in your efforts to bankrupt at any and all costs.  Not all of these business look at the world with your views and because of that you will find it in you to force their minds or crush them.  It's the complete opposite of community.  Where is your tolerance?  Rick made a comment the other day about how Norm and TFI were so closed minded (to the point of absurdity).  So, what are you?

 

Think of it this way.

Think of it this way. Suppose I had my own business.

Why would I have the business? To make money. Mainly in order to secure the future for myself and my family, to see that we had a home and never had to worry about wanting for anything.

How would I make that happen? By convincing the customer to give me their money. I'd do that by giving them what they want. If I don't have it, I don't get their money. I can't force them to spend it on me.

That's all this is. Storman's isn't convincing us to give them our money. I understand a lot of innocent workers are suffering but there are many other stores in the community I don't shop at for various reasons. Is the hardship for their workers my fault too?

 

But wherefore thou alone? Wherefore with thee Came not all hell broke loose?
John Milton

Red meat is NOT bad for you. Now blue-green meat, THAT'S bad for you!
Tommy Smothers

Thanks, I understand the

Thanks, I understand the economics of it.  That hasn't passed me by with age.

Job loss?

I have been in touch with Teresa Iverson, the president of UFCW local 367, a number of times. Naturally, boycotters are concerned about how this affects the employees of Ralph's and Bayview.  She has not reported any job losses related to the boycott.  If anyone knows differently, I would be very interested in hearing about it. 

That's good news.  I don't

That's good news.  I don't know of any job loss either, I was projecting.  I think that it would be only natural, if the boycott is having a deep impact on revenue, to change the operating environment.  The first place to do that is up front.  You can live with lines - you can't live with empty shelves.

Oh that's just Rick. He

Oh that's just Rick. He loves to point it out when TFI and I are making bad comparisons or thinking in a way that is opposing of him. TFI and I are used to being part of the "minority" crowd on Olyblog. I try never to point out when people are being narrow-minded though, it always seems to be counter-productive to the conversation. It always struck me as a form of belittlement.

My point...

...was just to draw your (and TFI's) attention to those cases where you make comparisons that actually hurt the discussion, rather than inform it. I sometimes get the impression that you two feel obligated to give a counter example or argument just because you can, rather than because you really have an investment in the outcome. This is not debating class. If you have something to contribute that moves the discussion forward, please do so. If you're just messing up someone else's sand castle, move along.


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow

Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt

Sure, because TFI and I are

Sure, because TFI and I are the only ones on the blog who do this. Are we really going to go down the path of "Who is actually contributing and who isn't?"? I really think that could be an ugly road Rick.

 Generally when I make an argument or comparison it is to make sure that people look at this from alternate perspectives. I'll try and keep that to a minimum and make sure to call anyone out who doesn't seem to have an actual "investment" in the thread.

Obviously I agree with Norm

Obviously I agree with Norm here.  Rick, that same medicine works equally as well on both sides of any discussion.

Right.

Who else comments on every single freakin' thread on this blog except you and TFI? Do you really care about all those topics so much? Believe me, it's not your responsibility to make sure everyone on the planet sees every issue from every possible perspective. It's ok to just watch sometimes and let people figure things out on their own.

Try the following experiment: for one week, contribute just on issues that you really care about, and see what happens. I bet you will get a different response from people if they feel like you are more invested in the actual outcome, not just "adding perspective."


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow

Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt

I actually find most

I actually find most everything interesting.

Earlier I was talking with a fellow named "Bert" on the real-time chat about whether or not the aliens would come in peace or war. "Bert" thought they'd be more like "ET" than "Independence Day." I concluded (and maybe "Bert" agreed, I don't know? I left and he had to do some reading) that it wouldn't matter because if they have the technology to travel the galaxy, enslaving us and wiping out the planet probably wouldn't be too difficult.

In short, I hope they come in peace.

Do I really care whether or not the aliens come in peace or war? Not really (well, until it happens. Then I will).

But hey, you run the show around here. It is nice to see the authoritarian-side come out in the all-inclusive progressive movement, though. So much for free love, eh?

The aliens are already here

According to Francis Crick, he won the Nobel Prize for "discovering" DNA, the aliens are already here, they call themselves Hungarians.

"I would make it impossible for the covetous and avaricious to utterly impoverish the poor. The rich can take care of themselves."
^@^
"I would make it impossible for the covetous and avaricious to utterly impoverish the poor. The rich can take care of themselves."
^@^

Dude.

Don't cry foul yet -- I only asked you to try an experiment. It's up to you.


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow

Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt

Since...

This is a state which said you are no longer free to determine whether your business is a smoking or non-smoking establishment by a 3:1 margin, a city claiming "rights" are being violated because a private business doesn't offer a product and a website where the majority cheers for psychological evaluations in order for U.S. citizens to exercise an enumerated right, there's going to be a lot of commentary from the minority.

But I'll refrain for a week or so and see what develops (I can see it now: turn Olympia into a commune and make patchouli oil mandatory! I keed, I keed).

lol


When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion. -C.P. Snow


Beware the terrible simplifiers.
Jacob Burckhardt

?

"Must you make your feelings so known that real monetary loss is the result?"

Yes. Anything less would be pointless.

"Not all of these business look at the world with your views and because of that you will find it in you to force their minds or crush them. It's the complete opposite of community. Where is your tolerance?"

I don't know what your idea of community is but mine involves the recognition that it is to the community's benefit to have individuals with different knowledge sets sharing their knowledge so that members of the community can make more informed decisions regarding what kind of community develops and thrives. By your rationale our community should not only welcome the next Nazi rally, but we should encourage them to set up a store so that we can give them our money as well.

"Anybody who doesn't know that politics is crime has got a few screws loose."

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

but we should encourage them

but we should encourage them to set up a store so that we can give them our money as well.

I'm pretty sure it's called a "costume shop." ;)

heh

TFI made me laugh. That's awesome. I love OlyBlog.

"Anybody who doesn't know that politics is crime has got a few screws loose."

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

Ha! Great.But really,

Ha! Great.

But really, they're running around in frikkin' brownshirts. Did you ever see the "South Park" when Cartman got the entire Civil War re-enactment drunk so that they would follow him (in full Robert E. Lee garb) to Washington, D.C. in order for Cartman to win a bet against Stan and Kyle that the South won the Civil War?

Anyway, that's what I think about when I see people rallying in brownshirts.

ROFL!

Thank you for extending my

Thank you for extending my definition of community to include Nazis.  Obvoiously those are your words, not mine.  I would not tolerate Nazis because they have no tolerance for anyone who opposed their myopic view of the world.

I don't see how moving a business to revenue loss is the point.  Is that really the intent?  Or, are you satisfied with a change in position (isn't that the real win anyway)?  Seems a change in position wouldn't placate any who support the boycott.  You're bitter...and the grudge has been built.

that's the point

"I would not tolerate Nazis because they have no tolerance for anyone who opposed their myopic view of the world."

In other words, it's not something you would want in your community. This is a reductio ad absurdum argument. I'm hoping that by making plain the absurdity of your premises you'll be able to start seeing why your conclusion is wrong.

"I don't see how moving a business to revenue loss is the point. Is that really the intent? Or, are you satisfied with a change in position (isn't that the real win anyway)? Seems a change in position wouldn't placate any who support the boycott."

Very few businesses change without an economic reason to do so (either positive or negative). If the local Thriftways were to change course on Plan B I'm relatively certain a good portion of the local boycotting population would stop. There are, of course, locals who have other reasons to despise the Stormans owned stores, so I'll not speak for them.

"Anybody who doesn't know that politics is crime has got a few screws loose."

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

It's not something a very

It's not something a very strong majority would want - far different than a very small minority boycotting a grocery store.  What's the most you've had out there at one time?  50?  Maybe 100?  Those are hardly significant numbers.  We can agree to disagree - you keep the boycott going, I'll keep on livin'.

my bad

"far different than a very small minority boycotting a grocery store."

Oh, I thought the boycott was having a significant financial impact on the Stormans owned stores. I guess if it's just a 'very small minority' of our community, then, the impact is illusory?

"Anybody who doesn't know that politics is crime has got a few screws loose."

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

It's not so much that they

It's not so much that they don't stock it (I personally could care less if they did or not) it's the moral judgement they passed on people who might need it.

There's plenty of stores I don't shop at for no other reason than "I just don't." Am I being ridiculous for not patronizing them?

How are the boycotters a "reverse mafia"? Nobody is being forced to avoid Thriftway. Nobody's life has been put in danger. (And honestly, wouldn't something which was the opposite of a mafia be a good thing?)

You choose to shop there. More power to you. Since I stopped shopping there I've saved on average over $150 a month in just lunch expenses. More power to me.

P.S. I do enjoy Safeway. The Chicken Strips in their deli aren't $10 a pound (which means approximately 3 of them)

 

But wherefore thou alone? Wherefore with thee Came not all hell broke loose?
John Milton

Red meat is NOT bad for you. Now blue-green meat, THAT'S bad for you!
Tommy Smothers

Rather than take the money

Rather than take the money as an existence fee, like mafia groups do, our local boycotters stop the money from coming in by organizing a clique and force their views upon local business owners.  That was my point.  It was tounge in cheek, so to speak.

St. Peters doesn't perform hysterectomies for sterilization - only for advanced medical conditions.  Where's the boycott of St. Peter's?  They are passing moral judgement based on their religious views, how is this any different than Mr. Storman's conviction?

Depending on your insurance,

Depending on your insurance, st. peters may be the only game in town. Plus it being the "not for profit" hospital many insurances push folks here. Do women really get hysterectomies for sterilization purposes? It seems like removing the fallopian tubes ( or clipping) would be much less invasive.

Identical Post Removed

Identical Post Removed

As soon as you're able to

As soon as you're able to point me towards someone who went to St. Pete's asking for a voluntary hysterectomy, and who was given a moral judgement when denied, I'll take that subject up.

 

But wherefore thou alone? Wherefore with thee Came not all hell broke loose?
John Milton

Red meat is NOT bad for you. Now blue-green meat, THAT'S bad for you!
Tommy Smothers

OK Merwyn, that's two

OK Merwyn, that's two (including my case), let's hear it!

And, yes, I confused the terminology.  I deal with TLA's all day - big words scare me. Embarassed

Here's St. Pete's Mission

Here's St. Pete's Mission Statement. When you know a company's Mission Statement then you should be aware of what they're offering and what to expect.

 

Providence Health System continues the healing ministry of Jesus in the world of today, with special concern for those who are poor and vulnerable. Working with others in a spirit of loving service, we strive to meet the health needs of people as they journey through life.

Our mission is carried out by employees, volunteers, physicians and others who work together in a spirit of service that reflects our core values.

Notice the final sentence: Their core beliefs. If you don't share their core beliefs that's your right. And if in consequence you don't wish to do business with them that's your right. But seeing as how they're non-profit a boycott won't do much for anybody.

 

But wherefore thou alone? Wherefore with thee Came not all hell broke loose?
John Milton

Red meat is NOT bad for you. Now blue-green meat, THAT'S bad for you!
Tommy Smothers

I think you might be

I think you might be refering to tubal ligation, not hysterectomy. In which case, yes Merwynn, I was told by Group Health that I would have to go to the a hospital in Tacoma to have my tubes tied because St. Pete's wouldn't do it for moral reasons.



Fair enough. However I'm

Fair enough. However I'm curious to the exact wording that was used. Were you told you were wrong for wanting it? (and by that, I don't mean told that it might be medically unnecessary) or were you merely told that they don't provide the service since they're a Catholic hospital? Because that in itself wouldn't be a moral judgement. If you were told that you were wrong then by all means organize a protest (it's somewhat difficult to boycott a hospital, and your insurance might have something to say about it when the time comes.)

But wherefore thou alone? Wherefore with thee Came not all hell broke loose?
John Milton

Red meat is NOT bad for you. Now blue-green meat, THAT'S bad for you!
Tommy Smothers

I prefer Albertsons myself.

I prefer Albertsons myself. I'm not sure your comments fall on deaf ears, most of us here are pretty open to things (cept guns, don't talk about those) but I'm not sure I understand your "reverse mafia" point. Many businesses are boycotted for different things. I don't buy ben and jerry's ice cream, or watch susan sarandon movies. I'm not sure how you quantify me being a better person for giving them money and letting go what I dislike about their practices. Ralph's isn't the only game in town, they chose to be the one that refused to carry plan B. I respect his decision, I appreciate that he is willing to stand up for what he believes and I don't think he should be "forced" to carry plan B (as TFI stated, this song has been played MANY times before on this blog) but I also believe that if he's unwilling to carry it, he will lose customers who think he should carry it. It sounds like a pretty simple supply and demand scenario to me. If I'm part of a reverse mafia I want a reverse mafia name please.

 Oh, and lambrusco is available at TOP foods and Albertson's also. It's what I typically drink when I'm so inclined.

The boycott isn't about hurting anyone, Ehver Green...

... it's about refusing to patronize a store that discriminates against women.  Reproductive freedom may not seem like a big deal to you, but for many of us, it's reason enough to affect our choice of grocery store. 

I must admit, I'm a bit confused as to why you've spent so many words ranting about how this issue isn't important.  I can hardly wait to see how much you'll have to say about something significant.  

Do you go to St. Peter's? 

Do you go to St. Peter's?  They also discriminate against women because of religious beliefs.  Better start heading to CMC or a hosital in the Tacoma area.

Your last two sentences are a dig and one that I won't dignify with a response.

A hospital discriminates

A hospital discriminates (usually on economic grounds) by refusing to attend to an injury or treat an illness. Is St. Peter Hospital really doing that to women?

But wherefore thou alone? Wherefore with thee Came not all hell broke loose?
John Milton<

Red meat is NOT bad for you. Now blue-green meat, THAT'S bad for you!
Tommy Smothers

So they don't have the

So they don't have the capacity to discrimate against gender?  I don't think so.  Who cares about the wording.  The fact remains they deny a service other non-religious hospitals provide.  You can't get it at St. Pete's but you can get it at Tacoma General.  You can get Plan B at Rite Aid but can't at Ralph's.  What's the difference?  Stormans morally objects to Plan B just as St. Pete's morally objects to tubal ligation (I hope I got that right).

And why in the hell does it have to be a big production?  What's wrong with just saying, "Well, I don't agree with that decision so I'm no longer shopping there," as an INDIVIDUAL?

Who cares about the wording?

Who cares about the wording? I do when the wording makes all the difference.

I don't see whoever's in charge at the hospital telling the paper they're drawing a moral line. Also I don't see the hospital's supporters telling people who want TL, vasectomies or BC to just be responsible.

Which reminds me, Stormans sells Viagra and condoms. St. Pete's is at least keeping things consistent with both genders as far as contraception is concerned. Or should I start saying they discriminate against men for not providing vasectomies?

 

But wherefore thou alone? Wherefore with thee Came not all hell broke loose?
John Milton

Red meat is NOT bad for you. Now blue-green meat, THAT'S bad for you!
Tommy Smothers

It's called "advocacy."

It's called "advocacy." Advocating something, like a boycott, isn't issuing an order to the troops that they have to do something. The "Olympia mafia," as you call it, doesn't work like that. Advocating means pulling heavily for one side, because you can be sure the other side's advocates will be pulling heavily for their side. Everyone who participates in the boycott is, already, doing it "as an individual."

You're confusing advocacy for judgment (a mistake many people make). You'll notice nobody's jumping down anybody's throat for not going along with the boycott. I don't hear any "How dare you shop there!" or anything.

http://wallycuddeford.livejournal.com
http://wallynotorious.livejournal.com

Sauce for the goose...

You don't like digs, eh?  Does that mean we needn't expect any from you?

Actually, I have very strong feelings about hospitals that limit the reproductive options of its patients.  However, it cuts both ways.  When my husband was diagnosed with leukemia, he was in a Catholic hospital.  We wanted to do sperm banking before he started chemotherapy (which can render a man sterile), because we were hopeful that he would recover and we would someday be able to have another child.  The hospital, however, refused to bank sperm, and he was too medically fragile to delay initiating chemotherapy, so he ended up permanently sterile, and my daughter is an only child.  However stupid, and even cruel, I found this policy, I didn't see it as a gender discrimination issue.  A hospital boycott, also, seems like a very impractical project.  Let's face it -- people have far fewer choices when faced with seeking medical care than they do when buying groceries. 

Oh, I wouldn't go that far

Oh, I wouldn't go that far but feel free to call me out if I do!  I don't find joy in belittling others, but sometimes I post before Preview and it can bite me in the *ss...

I don't know how your story doesn't equal the Storman's scenario.  If it were not for the current condition of your husband (at the time), would you have opted to visit a bank in advance of chemo treatment?  Your specific circumstance didn't afford you with that option but if it had I think your choice would have been an easy one given your desire to have more children.  Even though we are comparing two different sectors, I think an alternate option is always more appealing than boycott and there happens to be many options in this case.

Are you kidding? There were no options in the sperm banking...

...scenario.  None.  And it cost us plenty, thanks to the hospital imposing its ideology on our reproductive choices.  Who's to say Ralph's moral imposition isn't costing someone something right this minute?  The option I choose is boycott. 

"Your last two sentences are

"Your last two sentences are a dig and one that I won't dignify with a response."

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!! Insecure! Insecure! Insecure!!!

(You can't respond and not respond, Bubba. Pick one.)

http://wallycuddeford.livejournal.com
http://wallynotorious.livejournal.com

making up arguments as you go along

"I mean, who are they to decide what I can buy in their store."

Oath of a Pharmacist. The problem here is not only that the Stormans are imposing their morals on our community, but that they're affecting the ability of their Pharmacist to follow said Oath. If you open a business which involves the employment of somebody who must take an oath, you, as the employer, need to allow your employee to fulfill that obligation.

"You aren't hurting the Stormans family, you know that right? You are hurting the teenage bagger who has to be let go, or the journeyman level clerk who is unaffordable @ 20+ dollars an hour. And, while you blame Storman's decision for these scenarios, you have the power to restore the loss and walk away with your head held high knowing you were a better person for having done so."

Oh no, a Catch 22! Now if all we boycotting folk don't start shopping at Thriftway again we'll be the cause of somebody losing his/her job. But, if all we boycotting folk stop shopping at the alternatives then we'll affect their newfound income source which will in turn force them to fire their employees! Oh gods, what have we done! You've got to be kidding Ehver. Yes it sucks if somebody loses a job, just like it always sucks if somebody loses a job. That is no reason to accept the status quo though, not when the status quo is not what we want in our community.

"Anybody who doesn't know that politics is crime has got a few screws loose."

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

Doesn't appear

not carrying Plan B violates the oath of a pharmacist.

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.

"In war there is no substitute for victory" "It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it" -- General Douglas MacArthur

oh but it does

"I will embrace and advocate change in the profession of pharmacy that improves patient care."

Plan B is far less invasive than an abortion and far less harmful to a woman's body than a pregnancy. It's really quite clear.

"Anybody who doesn't know that politics is crime has got a few screws loose."

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

Nope

The oath is too subjective, you can come away with that line as being violated by not providing Plan B, and I can read it another way. Sorry Enpen, you got to do better than that.

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.

"In war there is no substitute for victory" "It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it" -- General Douglas MacArthur

you're reaching

The patient is the person standing at the counter. There is no other patient. Line two of the oath is equally applicable.

"Anybody who doesn't know that politics is crime has got a few screws loose."

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

Sorry dude

it isn't a clear violation of the Oath. Yes, you can plug your scenario into the line. Given the fact that it is a drug, and drugs all carry side-effects and risks, giving the patient other forms of contraception would be more likely to fill the requirements of the oath. Frankly giving the gal a brochure on how to plan her sexual exploits a little more responsibly would be fullfilling the oath. As far as sexual assault, different story, and plenty methods of access other than Storman's, including free access.

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.

"In war there is no substitute for victory" "It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it" -- General Douglas MacArthur

"Frankly giving the gal a

"Frankly giving the gal a brochure on how to plan her sexual exploits a little more responsibly would be fullfilling the oath."

I think that gets at the crux of the issue. The alternative to birth control, every time, is "Giving the gal a brochure on how to plan her sexual exploits"? Why do people not suggest the pharmacist have her pass a brochure on to her partner in order to teach him about being more responsible in his sexual habits?

Plan B is part of being sexually responsible. It's saying, "I don't want to bring another unwanted child into this world, or even to carry a fetus until abortion." Just like condoms. Just like abstinence. In fact, it's even moreso a part of sexual responsibility, because condoms won't help you in a morning-after emergency. Promoting sexual responsibility, and then withholding a crucial form of contraception, is very contradictory. (I don't know what your stance on Plan B is, Olycop, but it sounded like that was where you were leaning. Sorry if I got you wrong.)

http://wallycuddeford.livejournal.com
http://wallynotorious.livejournal.com

Men are perfect

Frankly giving the gal a brochure on how to plan her sexual exploits a little more responsibly would be fullfilling the oath.

I have to agree with this, after all, only the gals are to blame for any contraceptive failure. Because as we all know, male sperm is precisely programmed to act only as its sender directs. Men never make any mistakes, they are above natural laws, pristine in their perfection. While we women, my God, our bodies are veritable storms of confusion, in fact we have the uncanny ability to take perfectly planned sperm and confuse the purpose.

Truly, it would be far better for more women to choose only women as their sexual and affectional partners, because really, do we honestly think a brochure alone can get the facts through our ditzy heads? We probably should be put in camps too, because of our uncanny bewitching sperm ability. We need stern consequences for our inability to become mechanical robots.

It is a wonder that men are so patient with us.

she turned me into a newt!

"A witch! A witch! A witch! A witch! We've found a witch! A witch! A witch! A witch! A witch! We've got a witch! A witch! A witch! Burn her! Burn her! Burn her! We've found a witch! We've found a witch! A witch! A witch! A witch!"

"Anybody who doesn't know that politics is crime has got a few screws loose."

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

Involuntary spellbinding

Alas, we women cannot control our evil ways, we cast spells upon men without even intending to. I do not deny this truth. We create disorder out of order, failed contraception out of perfect male intent, and straw out of gold.

Sarcasm

yes, sorry

"it isn't a clear violation of the Oath. Yes, you can plug your scenario into the line."

Please, then, plug another scenario into the oath regarding emergency contraceptives that shows how this is not a clear violation. So far you're just telling me that my reading is incorrect without actually providing any facts to back up your rhetoric. I feel like I'm talking about the chemical composition of water while somebody says "no, water doesn't have any oxygen."

"Given the fact that it is a drug, and drugs all carry side-effects and risks, giving the patient other forms of contraception would be more likely to fill the requirements of the oath."

Such as?

"Frankly giving the gal a brochure on how to plan her sexual exploits a little more responsibly would be fullfilling the oath."

Aside from you stating that it would fulfill the oath, I can't make that fit the language at all, and that's kind've my specialty.

"As far as sexual assault, different story, and plenty methods of access other than Storman's, including free access."

Notice in the Pharmacist's oath that there's no addendum stating applicability unless somebody else nearby is already doing the same thing.

"Anybody who doesn't know that politics is crime has got a few screws loose."

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

The Ralph's pharmacist himself told me...

... that he was "terribly embarrassed" that he couldn't fill my Plan B prescription.  He stated clearly that he did not agree with Ralph's policy, and that he had not been consulted about it.  How very unfortunate that Ralph's management does not allow their extensively trained pharmacists to practice pharmaceutical medicine as they see fit. 

No matter how much

No matter how much experience the foot soldiers have, management still has their name on the sign.

I could go on for hours about the City of Olympia, for instance.

Personally....

... I would rather have a pharmacist in charge of filling my prescriptions.

Right

And he filled your prescription. I'd also like a mechanic to work on my engine.

But if I take my car to the wrong dealership (e.g. a Ford to a Chevy dealership), the mechanic isn't going to fix my engine even though he could. Why? Because he doesn't get to determine which products they're in the business of dealing with. Same with the pharmacist.

not a good analogy

Analogically speaking what you're talking about is more akin to taking an order for Plan B to Bayer Pharmaceuticals and demand that they fill it when Duramed is the company responsible.

On another level, auto mechanics don't have an oath swearing them to provide optimal auto repair work for the customers they serve (regardless of manufacturer).

"Anybody who doesn't know that politics is crime has got a few screws loose."

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

Uh, well, NO.

And he filled your prescription.

Well, no, actually, the pharmacist didn't fill my prescription.  That is sort of what this is all about. 

Yeah, I don't know why

Yeah, I don't know why that's there. I must have been typing a different response, went back and changed some stuff around and accidentally left it there without noticing.

Also, since the analogy is bad one, perhaps a more accurate one would be a third-party mechanic (e.g. Aamco) refusing to work on the engine?

The longer I'm on Olyblog,

The longer I'm on Olyblog, the more I realize there is NEVER a good analogy for anything female. And I mean anything, body parts, bodily functions, medicine, the female mind, body parts, their clothing, the way they talk, body parts, how they drive, the way they smell....did I mention body parts?

better for sure

Absolutely that's a better analogy. I'd still point to the Pharmacist Oath making them irreconcilably dissimilar. The oath here is, to me, what makes this case pretty bizarre and difficult to analogize. To me it makes this scenario akin to a law firm demanding an employed attorney act in a disbarrable (I think I just made up a word) manner under the premise that, since they pay the bills it's justified.

"Anybody who doesn't know that politics is crime has got a few screws loose."

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

You missed my sarcasm in

You missed my sarcasm in there didn't you? re: who are they...

It's not what you want in your community - it's fine in mine.  And that is the problem here, this is one of the most divided cities I've lived in and I've lived in quite a few.  If you honestly believe a majority of Olympians care about what Mr. Storman stocks in his store, you must be kidding, Enpen.  I'm starting to buy into the vocal minority label - it comes through loud and clear.

eh?

"If you honestly believe a majority of Olympians care about what Mr. Storman stocks in his store, you must be kidding, Enpen."

Community isn't just the majority, first of all. Second, whether or not the majority of Olympians would care (if they knew) is outside of my current knowledge.

"I'm starting to buy into the vocal minority label - it comes through loud and clear."

The minority typically must be vocal in order to grow its ranks, otherwise their voices and their knowledge are washed away by the white noise of an apathetic majority.

"Anybody who doesn't know that politics is crime has got a few screws loose."

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

Enough people care to affect sales

Business has been affected.  Stormans has been complaining pretty publicly about the business downturn caused by the boycott.  I would say that seems to indicate that quite a few people care about this issue. 

Having read the entire discussion here:

This isn't about preference of brands, and you know that.

This is one link in a long, long chain of standing up for the reproductive rights of women. Having easy and quick access to Plan B from your closest pharmacy is responsible sexuality. Denying it under some pretense of promoting responsible sexuality is hypocrisy.

This boycott isn't indicative of some wish to bring vengeance upon the Stormans. I like local business. But the Stormans are interfering with the healthy sexuality of women by not offering Plan B, and all they have to back themselves up is this vague "We believe a newly fertilized egg has a soul that's just as valid as the soul in each of us" thing. Beliefs are great, and I encourage them to follow their beliefs in their own lives. But trying to use one's ownership of a store to force one's beliefs onto others is wrong. Since we have other options in town, the boycott is a way of saying, "If you don't like this, shop elsewhere until they become more community-minded." That's what the people in the boycott, myself included, have chosen to do.

As for your stuff about St. Pete's Hospital, I don't care much for them either, and the comments here have given me two more reasons not to like them. But we don't have much choice. They have a monopoly, which is far worse than a boycott will ever be.

"But, I know that these comments fall on deaf ears - time and time again."

I love it when people say, "Oh, you still don't agree with me! You must not be listening!"

"What do you hope to accomplish?"

Apparently, I hope for a lot more than you do.

http://wallycuddeford.livejournal.com
http://wallynotorious.livejournal.com

You always have a choice.

You always have a choice. You can open up your wallet and go to capital, you can get in your car and drive north, you can go to one of the handful of emergency clinics here in Olympia, or you can take charity care. If you can't afford any of the options I stated, than I guess you are shit out of luck and you should try moving to an area that has a "not for profit" hospital that isn't religiously affiliated. As an employee there I see the things DAILY that are done for people, I am frequently one of those people administering care in the facility and enjoy the ability to help out all walks of life, and I do mean ALL. Cops, other doctors/nurses, business men, homeless folks, people who can't speak a lick of english, people who are barely scraping by. I frequently refer people to the financial counselor who I work with (the woman is so nice to people I'm afraid she creates diabetics) and watch as they leave her office relieved that someone was willing to take the time to not only help them medically but financially. All of the things that St. Pete's does for this community...well I'm pretty sure you can tell where I'm gonna tell you to stick it Wally.

Reasons to dislike St.

Reasons to dislike St. Pete's: They habitually lay off people just before they'd be eligible for retirement. Their main elevator takes forever to arrive. Some of the managers are jerks and some of the doctors and surgeons think they're God. In all these years they've teased me with interviews yet never hired me.

Reasons to like St. Pete's: They save lives. They increase the quality of lives. They fixed my torn back muscle when I was out of work and all I had to pay for was the ultrasound. They're fixing my girlfriends cancer right now, they're making it as easy on her as possible, they doing everything she needs to save her life, and she doesn't have to pay for any of it.

If people are hating the hospital because they're Catholic and don't provide birth control that's a pretty piss-poor reason.

But wherefore thou alone? Wherefore with thee Came not all hell broke loose?
John Milton

Red meat is NOT bad for you. Now blue-green meat, THAT'S bad for you!
Tommy Smothers

Movin' on. Sorta...

I am all for free speech through boycott. Where we spend our dollars say a lot about us and can make a difference and it is our right to spend money at the businesses that align with our particular polical views. If Storman's doesn't care enough about what the community thinks/believes to change their policy it is their own fault.

Honestly even if they did flip flop I'd find it difficult to shop there on a regular basis again, our Thriftways are overly expensive and I've learned to work (shop) around them and their prices very well by now.

Dave White - "Old Timey Dave"
Old Time Cider Blog

Stormans aren't anti-birth control, they are pro-life

Storman's took a stance on Plan B because there is the possiblity of termination of the pregnancy after conception (read chemical abortion). Kevin believes that abortion is wrong and took a stand. Good for him. And I hope he can weather the boycott.

I'm a big believer in boycotting. I have done so many times. In fact there is a business in this town that I send him a letter once a year letting him know how much of my business he lost. So I agree with those here that are boycotting for what they believe in.

What I do see here is the activist mind set by groups in this community that want to protest for the sake of protesting. I saw it happen right after the sidewalk ordinance passed. If you can rally that group(s) behind your cause, you can bring lots of numbers to the table. I believe that is why this campaign against Storman's has been so successful. I doubt there are that many rabid feminists out there.

I cautioned at the outset of this boycott that people needed to be careful what they wished for. If Kevin is resolute in his beliefs, and the business collapses because of the boycott, many elderly, mentally ill, developmentally disabled, sickly, etc. may loose their access to the pharmacies that Stoman's has available to them. This may complicate their lives significantly. That is why this boycott is so very hurtful, or at least potentially hurtful.

As for me, I will pray for Kevin and his family, the employees of Stormans, and that the business will survive this attack.

"Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself." Leo Tolstoy.

"In war there is no substitute for victory" "It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it" -- General Douglas MacArthur

Chemical abortion and emergency contraception are...

... two different things.  That's really what's so sad and ridiculous about this whole thing.  There isn't a shred of scientific evidence that proves a single fertilized egg has failed to implant because of Plan B.  It is NOT Mifeprex, the abortion pill, formerly known as RU486.  Spend 15 minutes on google, and learn to make the distinction between birth control and abortion.  This boycott is a birth control issue.  We have had people supporting the boycott, on the picket line even, who oppose abortion.  The morning after pill is not an abortifacient.  It's birth control, plain and simple.

From the FDA's website:Plan

From the FDA's website:

 

Plan B works like other birth control pills to prevent pregnancy. Plan B acts primarily by stopping the release of an egg from the ovary (ovulation). It may prevent the union of sperm and egg (fertilization). If fertilization does occur, Plan B may prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the womb (implantation). If a fertilized egg is implanted prior to taking Plan B, Plan B will not work.

The only iffy point on whether it's contraception or abortion would be the argument on whether the egg needs to be embedded in the womb or not.

To say it could "possibly" kill the unborn is the same as saying diet cola could possibly cause cancer or Secretarial work could possibly cause obesity. I'm sure there's that one-half of one percent example out there where Plan B aided in the bodies rejection of an embedded egg (and since this is hypothetical I presume we can't wonder whether the body would have done that anyways, or whether there was trauma or other substances involved in the (extremely) early miscarriage.

I know most everyone doesn't want to rehash the old thread but when people can't agree on the definition of one of the core factors it shows that the problem won't go away.

I'm not a rabid feminist. I'm not Pro-Choice. I don't spell it "womyn". I don't care for NOW. But I think contraception is a good thing, I don't feel a woman should be forced to suffer the consequences of an accident, assault, or even poor choice if there's a way around it without abortion. I really don't care that Thriftway doesn't provide it, but I also really don't care that Kevin explained it the way he did. Just because some boycotters aren't feminists doesn't mean they're "protesting for the sake of protesting."  

 

But wherefore thou alone? Wherefore with thee Came not all hell broke loose?
John Milton

Red meat is NOT bad for you. Now blue-green meat, THAT'S bad for you!
Tommy Smothers

I think you make a very good point, Merwyn

And I do agree with you, in essence.  But I would like to point out that in the FDA statement, it is affirmed that Plan B prevents ovulation, and that it MAY prevent fertilization, and it MAY inhibit implantation.  Although I believe a pregnancy begins at implantation and anything that prevents pregnancy before that point is birth control, it's important to realize that the only action which Plan B has been medically proven to inhibit is ovulation.  There simply isn't any evidence to prove that Plan B inhibits implantation of a fertilized egg.  This is a very difficult area to research, due to ethical considerations.  (Personally, I wouldn't want to undergo surgery just to see whether I had a fertilized egg in there, searching in vain for a place to implant.) It is also important to note that regular birth control pills work in the same way, and the same gray areas as to its precise mechanisms exist; conventional birth control pills DO prevent ovulation, and MAY inhibit fertilization, and MAY inhibit ovulation.  Will they be refusing to stock the pill next?

It's a boycott, not an

It's a boycott, not an attack. At least not by anyone I've spoken with. Physical, ad hominem, or otherwise. And just out of curiosity do you interpret your quote to mean changing oneself out of changing belief, or molding oneself to conviction?
"Go, Nigel! Go!" -- David St. Hubbins

The FDA is changing its language

Remember this controversy?  Well, moving at a glacial speed, the FDA has finally begun to change its information regarding the mechanisms of action of Plan B.  New language published this week has foregone all mention of an effect on implantation.  Remember the Stormans were concerned that a fertilized egg (which they believe is a human life) might not be able to implant in the uterus after a woman takes Plan B?  Whether or not Plan B does anything other than suppress ovulation has been controversial for years, but finally the FDA has been won over by the scientific evidence.  More information here and here and here

In other words, the FDA now believes that the morning after pill doesn't cause an abortion, by any definition whatsoever of abortion, ever.  No fertilized eggs have been lost due to Plan B. Hoever, the owners of Ralph's have lost a great deal of money, both through the boycott and for legal fees in their lawsuit against the State of Washington -- and no fertilized eggs were ever truly endangered! It will be interesting to see how they respond to this news about Plan B.