Why the cop hating?

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I think there's...

Submitted by Rick on Fri, 02/22/2008 - 9:47pm.

...disagreement about what are "acceptable levels of force." Characterizing that as "cop hating" borders on intellectual dishonesty.

> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract

Do tell

Submitted by security_six on Fri, 02/22/2008 - 9:50pm.

Lately you haven't been too happy with anything I've had to say about cops and seem to be making a deliberate effort to marginalize them.

I don't care to wade through the muck again, but I have seen several statements that could be considered cop hating or anti cop, which in my mind is the same thing.

I think your bias is showing. I would call your intellectual dishonesty claim deliberately insulting at best, and at worst an attempt to undermine what I am trying to say.

"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown

I am not a rioter

Submitted by rainy gray on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 1:22pm.

I'm really offended that you would use such inflammatory language to mischaracterize events, and pretend that you actually want to discuss why people harbor resentment toward the cops. You are obviously not interested in anyone else's point of view, or you wouldn't immediately characterize them as "whining." Starting a thread like this is the online equivalent of throwing rocks at a confrontation, not because you really believe in anything, but because you like conflict and want to escalate it.

I disagree....

Submitted by Tschida on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 8:46am.

I don't think that it is the equivalent of throwing rocks at those who disagree with you. It is a open honest opinion that (as I see it) he is disappointed and resentful that people feel it is ok to harrass the police/sheriffs to the point of destroying property as well as stealing it. Further I see it as dissapointment and resentful feelings towards those who spectate at such events, and the members of our community who feel it is socially acceptable to enable this behavior.

I find it disappointing that if someone is honest enough to state how he feels about this issue in our community that you feel he is not being 'open' to a dialog. I am sorry to have to point out to you that he opened the dialog by stating how he feels about the matter and it sad to see you think he is being disingenuous because he used some words your uncomfortable with.

Perhaps the discussion would be better if you stoped looking for ways to take offense and actually listened to the message being sent rather than demanding the message be politically correct so to speak.

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

It is not very "open..."

Submitted by Rick on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 9:27am.

...to use inflammatory language and epithets in expressing one's feelings. And pointing out such poor expression of "feelings" is not "looking for ways to take offense."

> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract

What?

Submitted by Tschida on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 9:34am.

I did not feel it was overly inflamatory, and using 'epithets' only serves to describe his contempt for those who participate and those who enable this behavior. He started the diaglog, thus showing his openess to the discussion. Taking issue with language for the sake of avoiding being offended only serves to convolute the discussion and avoid the point of the post.

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

Well see,

Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 9:45am.

now this is how it works. Notice how you are in your own way asking people to "not take issue with language." Others are offering suggestions about how to engage them in a conversations...if that is the aim. It's a good thing.

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes

Opinions or conversations

Submitted by Guglielmo on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 9:30am.

Some folks here would rather that Olyblog posters focus more on the latter. Of course Six is free to post how he likes, but peole are also free to critique comments and suggest what they would rather read. What you might call "simple political incorrectness" may be rude or needlessly inflamatory to others. Now, Six can react defensively to that information or he can reconsider how he posts in the future. He's done so in the past and quite succesfully. I don't see the problem here. Do you, Six, and others feel censored or threatened by these criticisms?

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes

six....buddy...

Submitted by eregular on Fri, 02/22/2008 - 9:49pm.

if you weren't around for the port protests that have been going on over several years now, you wouldn't understand the deeprooted hatred that is developing towards "the man".

Ahh...

Submitted by security_six on Fri, 02/22/2008 - 9:52pm.

Coming up on one year living in Oly...

One would think my peculiar habits would be more welcome in this town then :-) (No I don't want to discuss them... just a snarky comment)

Thanks for the insight into past anger though.

"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown

Oh, cop hating is real in our town...

Submitted by Phil Owen on Fri, 02/22/2008 - 9:55pm.

but I don't think most of what you've seen here (ie suggestions about changes to policy, citizen review boards, etc) counts as that. I'm thinking more along the lines of Wally's "Honk if you hate cops" events downtown a while back. People can really get way out of line sometimes.

I do think you've got a seed of truth on this, six. Calls for OPD reforms are predictable following any major clash between protesters and police, and usually the worst behaved protesters give the loudest voice to the demands for reform. Yet if they are challenged on their own behavior, the give justification after justification. I'm not at all opposed to reforming police departments, but I also think we are way overdue for a discussion on reforming activism in our town.

The Canaanite's Call

Sounds like a new thread..

Submitted by security_six on Fri, 02/22/2008 - 9:57pm.

Reforming activism in Olympia.

"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown

it seems centered around the super-anti-war feelings

Submitted by eregular on Fri, 02/22/2008 - 10:10pm.

we are the state capitol, and we have one of the most "progressive" schools in the country. People are feeling desperate! So many years of this terrible blood shed, and for what? What do we have to show other than the full body bags at fort lewis? This war is protested by so many people around the world.

And the "pro-war" side say stupid stuff like "support our troops". When was the last time you heard an olympian glad that a U.S. soldier died in iraq? The troops are people, just like us, the politicians who are masterminding this charade are not the same species as most americans.

We support the troops by calling for the end of this illegal war!!

Cop Hating

Submitted by a.future.with.n... on Sat, 02/23/2008 - 3:06am.

Cop hating is as old as cops. I for one would rather see proactive alternatives to police than simple "honk if you hate cops" signs. I DO hate cops and I find that kind of stuff embarrassing.

Hating the police is not the same as hating someone because of their skin color or religion. It has nothing to do with the individual. A system can be reasonably hated for being flawed. All individuals are flawed in some way, it doesn't make sense to go around hating actual people for not being perfect. It does make sense to continuously demand more from the systems that govern our lives.

The systems we have are not permanent. They can be changed and they should be changed. Sometimes, most of the time, the channels set up to change them are dead ends that don't work and often reinforce the same flawed system.

I know that idea might totally blow your mind S6, but it's true now and has been true since, well, forever.

Does this mean we should all go smash some cop cars? Of course not. On the other hand, should we just suck it up and be in love with a system (the police) the pretty obviously isn't working for all of us? Also of course not. Finding the balance between the two is the tension Phil so accurately describes.

I'd be happy to participate in a thread that doesn't

Submitted by Guglielmo on Sat, 02/23/2008 - 7:34am.

characterize speaking up as whining or cop hating.

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes

Proactive Alternatives to Police

Submitted by DrewHendricks on Sat, 02/23/2008 - 7:56pm.

Today, I paid for a really nice sandwich at a locally owned restaurant. There were three "crusties" who were eating at the table near me. One I had seen before, two were totally new to me. The owner of the place called me up about 30 minutes afterward, and asked me if I knew them. After I had left, they had skipped on the bill. I told him what I knew, packed up my things, and took a stroll to the Greyhound bus terminal a couple blocks from my house. A bus left as I approached. Damn.
I continued to wander, first to the Oly Transit center, then to the well. There were two of them there, the one I knew and one I didn't, and a third guy. Any two of these guys could have hurt me physically, though they would not have regretted it for long. We spoke about what their absent friend (The last one to leave, the one who offered to pay for the others' bills) and his recent actions.
They were innocent, (yes, you smirk) and did not know what their friend had been up to. The youth in their faces is the only way they could get away with such a transparent lie.
I let them know that the owner of the place would probably not like it if they used his place anymore - to pee, or to eat - and that their long-term options had just shrunk by about 40% in this small, small town we live in. I suggested that the $30 the three of them had 'saved' really cost much more than it seemed, and that their anonymity was not so assured in this tiny, tiny human ecosystem we call our cash economy. Their third friend suggested to them that he had enough money to 'make it right' and that they should walk across the street and do that.
For all I know, they did not. But I didn't have to fight or even threaten anyone, and maybe - just maybe - they will choose differently next time. After all, how many times were we forgiven our full diapers by our own parents?
"Cop hating" is really just the love of people even when they make mistakes, and the knowledge that beating on them or tying them up should be reserved for actual, serious predation. Like sub-prime house loans.

It's not cop hating 6

Submitted by Norm on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 10:59am.

It's Monday morning quarterbacking. It's a bunch of people that have know idea (including Drew) what being a cop is, or the things that they face, trying to tell the public how the police should act. It's hippies/protesters/insertWhatever, trying to get the public convinced that "the man" shouldn't be able to enforce laws or have the ability to do their job. It's people that don't like the way the system works (because they like being criminals, or into street justice, whatever) so instead of changing the system, the screw with the foot-soldiers. It should be obvious 6, they are the n'er do well's of society, and they are upset that they are being called on it.

I think we should all follow Rick to work someday and second-guess everything he does. You never know he could be messing up a few kids and releasing them to the world. Far worse than a baton to the arm.

The people I serve...

Submitted by Rick on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 11:21am.

...evaluate my work quarterly -- it's called a faculty evaluation. The student can be completely frank about my performance in the classroom. I'd like the same for the OPD. I think that the people they serve should have a say in assessing their job performance. Why don't you think this is a good idea?

And, if I'm not mistaken, you just said that those of us asking questions "...like being criminals...". Surely you mis-spoke and will be retracting that statement very soon.

> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract

I also said, "whatever"

Submitted by Norm on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 1:12pm.

If you don't fall into that, feel free to exclude yourself. No, I won't retract that statement, thanks though.

It's less about assessing job performance, and more about YOUR (just you) ability to judge a cops job. You don't have any kind of knowledge of it, but you seem to have it all figured out.

The people that cops "serve" aren't always people looking for help, unlike your patients/students. So why don't you try not comparing apples to oranges. When you have a student who you kick out of class for shooting you in the shoulder, and you decide to take his assessment seriously, give me a call.

Being a citizen...

Submitted by Rick on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 1:51pm.

...is what qualifies me to play a role in evaluating the services that I pay for with my taxes. You talk about police as if it were something other than that.

> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract

Yet you don't seem to be able to do that

Submitted by Norm on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 1:53pm.

do you? So maybe you don't qualify? Or maybe this just isn't as cut and dry as speech pathology or teaching at the local college?

The police are something other than a local service, it's not that cut and dry.

You're not making sense.

Submitted by Rick on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 1:58pm.

What don't I seem to be able to do?

> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract

WAIT!

Submitted by Ehver Green on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 3:00pm.

TESC is publically funded, no?

Go on...

Submitted by Guglielmo on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 3:20pm.

I'd like to hear a recommendation based on that observation..

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes

Perhaps Ehver's point is...

Submitted by Jurjen S. on Tue, 02/26/2008 - 5:54pm.

...that if you argue that one's status as a (tax-paying) citizen and member of the public, in and of itself qualifies one to judge the job performance of public servants such as police officers--even concerning incidents/situations of which has no direct personal knowledge--that argument should apply equally to other publicly funded jobs. Such as, say, faculty at The Evergreen State College. Do we like the idea of some guy in Garfield county who's never been west of the Cascades, say, rating the performance of TESC faculty, based solely on the fact that he pays taxes in the state of Washington?

Everyone is potentially...

Submitted by Rick on Tue, 02/26/2008 - 6:13pm.

...on the receiving end of the police department's services.

> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract

Norm, some folks seek opportunities for progress

Submitted by Guglielmo on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 11:25am.

If you see exploiting an opportunity to re-examine police tactics as pissing on your parade, maybe you're in the wrong parade. There are many other occupations for people who cannot abide the public scrutiny. Last I saw, no one is being forced to be a law enforcement officer. And what makes me a n'er do well, exactly...my "incorrect" opinions?

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes

Not opinions

Submitted by Norm on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 1:09pm.

probably your judgement. I could probably go on, but I don't think I know you well enough to call you more than a n'er do well.

Wow Norm

Submitted by Guglielmo on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 1:13pm.

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes

You asked

Submitted by Norm on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 1:15pm.

What's next?

Submitted by rainy gray on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 2:59pm.

A food fight? A farting contest?

Sure!

Submitted by Norm on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 3:33pm.

Be aware that I'm cooking taco's tonight though.

From another thread

Submitted by Guglielmo on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 11:39am.

Crowd control is done by different ways, I'm not going to sit here and tell you I approve of hitting you with sticks to get you out of the way. I really can't justify at this time, because the investigation is just proceeding, why they did that, but we will find that out. We'll find out all that information and what prompt them to start that."
Ed Soger - Evergreen Chief of Police (Posted by Benny)

How about that?

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes

"because the investigation is just proceeding"

Submitted by JT on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 12:29pm.

Exactly!

But I'm guessing that if the results show the cops were correct in their action, that won't be accepted and we will get another round of "we need a citizens review board."

No matter if the science is all phony, there are collateral environmental benefits. Climate change provides the greatest chance to bring about justice and equality in the world ever.Christine Stewart (the real basis for the AGW scare)

Yes, exactly

Submitted by Guglielmo on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 12:43pm.

So it appears that raising questions isn't all that odious. In fact, it's part of the process. Any guesses about what folks will say if the investigation ends differently? I lack your special mind reading powers...;-)

Yes, the investigation will most likely show that the cops acted "correctly." That is, they did went by the book. Would a citizen's review board find any differently if they were restricted to "the book" as well? What's to fear?

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes

On a personal level,

Submitted by JT on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 3:45pm.

I have absolutely no problem with a citizen review board. You being the stat-man that you are can do some googling and you will likely find that cops tend to be found to have acted properly with citizen review boards over the findings by internal systems. And when cops are found to acted wrongly the officers tend to get less sever penalties from CRBs than from their internal administrators. Also, State labor law provides that officers don't have to speak to citizen review boards.

My only concern is you get people on the board that have an axe to grind, read Drew Hendricks. Or there won't be a significant training process, so you have people that know little or nothing about LE, but have definite opinions on how they should do their job, read Rick/Enpen.

Remember, establishment of CRBs is a mandatory topic of bargaining. So if this is to happen, the factions that want CRBs will have to have it negotiated with the police guild.

Thanks

Submitted by Guglielmo on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 3:58pm.

I'm less interested in the penalties than I am the greater citizen involvement in law enforcement. I think we are harvesting the fruits of us-versus-them culture and that needs to change. I'd hope our review board would cultivate educated memebers and not offer seats to ax-grinders.

Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist.! --John Maynard Keynes

Right there

Submitted by Norm on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 4:10pm.

That is my problem with them.

Asking questions...

Submitted by Rick on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 6:18pm.

...is so threatening that you have to make up that we have some axe to grind. I know how to keep an open mind -- it's part of my job.

> It's OK to be nice. <
enpen's social contract

No offense Rick...

Submitted by security_six on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 6:21pm.

But I noticed how open your mind is when it comes to talking in person to someone like me who is lawfully armed...

At any rate it is an interesting point that some may have an axe to grind and will try to get on a CRB....

I would say the best way to form a citizen review board is 1/3 of the board be appointed by the city government, 1/3 elected from the population, and 1/3 randomly chosen as you would for a grand jury. Say a 6 person board with the mayor breaking ties?

"Safety is a tyrant's tool; no one can be against safety."--Unknown

Nope,

Submitted by JT on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 9:05pm.

didn't say you had an axe to grind, I said you have really strong opinions about LE and know little or nothing about it. You sir, would need LOTS of training.

what are you talking about?

Submitted by enpen on Sun, 02/24/2008 - 11:10pm.

Or there won't be a significant training process, so you have people that know little or nothing about LE, but have definite opinions on how they should do their job, read Rick/Enpen.

I haven't even been involved in this conversation. Is this a mistake on your part or blatant dishonesty? If it's the former then a retraction is in order. If it's the latter then I request a temporary suspension of JT's account for lack of intellectual honesty.

"In principle, I am an anarchist. Kurt Vonnegut once said he was an agnostic who respects Jesus Christ. I am an anarchist who loves democracy." - Kenzaburo Oe

Haven't you been involved in others on this subject though?

Submitted by Norm on Mon, 02/25/2008 - 6:24pm.

I was under the impression that you have. I could be wrong as well though.

This IS going to a citizens' review board

Submitted by Jurjen S. on Tue, 02/26/2008 - 5:25pm.

Specifically, the TESC Police Services Community Review Board, consisting of members of the staff, faculty and student body. I'm one of the latter.

That's great.

Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 02/26/2008 - 6:10pm.

And hopefully will lead to accountability and transparency in the TESC police department. We now need this for the OPD.

There already be significant accountability and transparency

Submitted by Mike on Tue, 02/26/2008 - 7:28pm.

with TESC police department. The chief noted that use of batons to move people out of an officer's way gives him some concern, so it may be that he is used to dealing with a citizen review board that looks at the use of force with at least some citizen pov and that is a lot different from an internal police board or an auditor.

I am waiting to see if the TESC review determines that the OPD officers used batons in a manner that is not defined and allowed by the general orders.

If the OPD essentially rioted on arrival and escalated a non-assaultive confrontation into an assault by officers, they did so in a venue where a citizens review board exists and the facts and analysis of the review board may not be to OPD's liking.

It is time for a citizen review board for OPD. I hope when the Port suits are argued, negotiated, that one of the outcomes will be the establishment of the review board. That is exactly what happened in Seattle when the WTO suits proceeded for bad police work.

Wasn't the review board created as a result of this incident?

Submitted by Rob Richards on Tue, 02/26/2008 - 8:56pm.

That was my understanding, so I don't know how organized they could be this soon. If I'm wrong, then I take it back.

I don't see how the TESC review is going to have any effect on the OPD. I highly doubt one law enforcement agency is going to release a report against another, especially one that they've worked with for years and will continue to have to work with.

The citizens of Olympia will have to create an independent review board and just start doing it. Anything that is channeled through local government will have to go through the guild for approval, and they are not going to approve something that could affect their members negatively.

So busy, have not been able to follow this as closely

Submitted by Mike on Tue, 02/26/2008 - 9:07pm.

as I would have liked. I am under impression that TESC had a review board generally. Jurjen has special knowledge and will be able to give feedback. You may be right about the board.

The potential impact on OPD from the TESC incident is largely political. If a PD (TESC) with a review board eventually comes out with a report and analysis that faults the OPD to a certain extent (emphasis for a reason, think it through) for the level of violence and property destruction that occurrd, that places some part of the responsibility on officers who violated the general orders, then that is not great for the reputation of OPD.

I am old enough to remember the reign of Darrel Gates in the LAPD. He was there a long time after it became apparent to many that the LAPD needed real leadership to mend fences and be an effective community partner and that Gates was not capable of providing that kind of leadership. The thin blue line does not evolve or respond quickly.

I think we have a review board coming for OPD and I think it is needed. It will take a lot of effort and a good deal of time. I believe it is time and effort well-spent.

they did so in a venue where

Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 02/27/2008 - 1:25am.

they did so in a venue where a citizens review board exists and the facts and analysis of the review board may not be to OPD's liking.

Then OPD should stop responding to calls at the Evergreen.

There was nothing criminal - or against accepted proceedure by any law enforcement standard if you asked a cop and not a suit - which took place following the Dead Prez concert.

This is why police departments have a difficult time hiring people. Do you want to be a cop? Or do you want to be an armed social worker?

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