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Submitted by Krull on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 9:18am.
So why do us that are pro- 2nd amendment types like to have our guns with us? Are we compensating for something? Are we paranoid? Or do we think like good Boy Scouts and are prepared?
People like Anon-Larry think it isn’t a good use of money/resources. Or they think it’s unlikely it will ever be needed. Perhaps they believe it’s a risk to their well being if us gun lovers have our gun with us.
Of course I would disagree with each of those assertions. Guns hold their value very well, much better than a car or a computer for example. People who say it’s unlikely you will ever really need a gun, and yes they’re probably correct. But it is also highly unlikely you will need your seatbelt, but we put them on each time we get in the car. I can remember our first car that came with seatbelts. It was a 1966 Dodge Charger. I wore my seatbelt then, and still do to this day. In 42+ years of wearing a seatbelt, I have been involved in only two collisions neither of which wearing a seatbelt would have mattered. But guns, like a seatbelt, if you really need it you want to be sure you have it. Also, carrying a gun has next to no risk to John Q. Citizen.
So why do we gun nuts carry our guns, and why do the anti-gunners hate it so much? Each day when we all get up and head out into the scary world we are all armed with various weapons. Our greatest weapon is our brain. If we are alert to our surroundings, and use some common sense we can avoid 99% of the danger out there. The next weapons we all have, is our body parts. Our hands, feet, elbows, teeth, etc. are all weapons. Even if you have never been in a fight or trained to fight, we can still fight and use the weapons we all carry. We all can deploy empty hand defense, but like most things the better trained you are the better you can do. Next there are inanimate weapons. Those would be a can of pepper spray, keys, kubaton, taser, brass knuckles, knife, etc. Some of these weapons require some training, and all should be practiced with. Next on the list of weapons is likely the firearm. The firearm is at the top of a force continuum for cops or citizens alike. The gun is the most narrow form of self defense, so things have to really go to shit, or be about to go to shit to display it and/or use it. As you may know, one of the firearm safety rules is not to point the gun at anything you are not willing or justified to shoot. So you can’t and shouldn’t be waving it around at the drop of a hat. Nor should you use it to intimidate a person you are threatened by if you can’t use it against him/her. But when the shit hits the fan, you don’t want to bring a can of pepper spray to an event that requires or is best designed for a gun.
The daily strapping on a gun is like the daily putting your shoes on or your wallet in your pocket. Over time you begin to not even know it’s there. It is a part of you like your other clothing. If you train with it, and practice with it, you will be good with it if you need to use it. And you will be able to be safe with it so as not to endanger yourself or others.
So why don’t the anti-gunners like us gun nuts walking around with guns. In this state there are thousands of people carrying guns concealed every day (I tried to find some numbers but couldn’t located something current). You likely stand in line at the bank, grocery store, or wherever you go with someone or perhaps many people with guns. So what is the problem? Why the fear?
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I don't fear guns any more than I fear alcohol
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 9:31am.Many, many people enjoy alcohol everyday with no ill effect. Yet thousands of people are killed every year by drunk drivers. That is a cost of alcohol that society is apparently willing to bear. Guns also have a cost associated with them. As you can see in the following graph, firearm deaths of children are highly associated with the availability of guns. It is a cost society is apparently willing to accept. However, you really shouldn't be surprized that not everyone agrees with that. I don't fear guns or facts.
Gug, I don't
Submitted by Krull on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 9:43am.see how your response applies to the question, which is dealing with concealed (or open) carry of guns. Your response would fit better with a post about general ownership of guns.
But since you brought it up. Are we ok with loss of freedoms for more safety? Less guns/safer kids? Isn't that one of the rubs with the Patriot Act? Giving up freedoms for more safety?
"We Israelis sacrifice ourselves for our continued existence, our enemies sacrifice themselves for our destruction."--Unknown--
I'm not suggesting policy options
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 10:00am.I see you are only interested in why people "fear"
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 10:20am.the idea of folks carrying weapons. But that "fear" has a lot to do with how people feel about guns in general. But I'll stick with the carry issue if I contribute any more to this thread.
Edit: I don’t fear open or conceal carry. In my opinion, open carry is a breech of civil decorum. It says “I don’t trust this community and I don’t care what other people think.” It is anti-social. It is, in Olympia, unnecessary. Those who conceal, do so unnecessarily in my opinion, but it’s their business and I’m glad they keep it that way.
I appreciate your opinion..
Submitted by security_six on Thu, 01/10/2008 - 11:08am.I don’t fear open or conceal carry. In my opinion, open carry is a breech of civil decorum. It says “I don’t trust this community and I don’t care what other people think.” It is anti-social. It is, in Olympia, unnecessary. Those who conceal, do so unnecessarily in my opinion, but it’s their business and I’m glad they keep it that way.
Of course I will argue with it :-)
It has nothing to do with trusting a community. Part of it is a political statement. OC is a lost art in many parts of this country, and those of us who OC are concerned with losing that right altogether. As they say on www.OpenCarry.org "A right unexercised is a right lost"
As far as a breach of civil decorum, there are a lot of things that could be considered that. I view a group of unruly youths loudly playing music and hanging out on a street corner smoking a breach of civil decorum. Others in that social group would find it perfectly normal. Some would say a person with body piercing and colored hair going into Benaroya Hall to listen to the Seattle Symphony is a breach of civil decorum. I say we all have a right to our culture and lifestyles so long as the rights of others are not infringed. I am uncomfortable with some lifestyles and choices, but I accept them, and ask only the same.
As far as claiming a person does not "need" to OC in Oly, that is purely a matter of personal judgement. One does not "need" to do a lot of things. I don't "need" Gore-Tex, but it makes life a lot easier. I don't "need" to OC, but it is who I am, and I choose to do so. When I go to Seattle I almost never CC. In Oly it is about a 50/50 mix.
I don't have a lot of time right now to get into the pros and cons of OC, but am going to start a blog entry about you. You raised some good points worthy of discussion Gug and I'm more than happy to discuss them in their own thread if you or anyone else is.
Let's let Larry speak for himself.
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 5:05pm."People like Anon-Larry think it isn’t a good use of money/resources. Or they think it’s unlikely it will ever be needed. Perhaps they believe it’s a risk to their well being if us gun lovers have our gun with us."
Incorrect statement. I'll clarify.
Statistically, the chances of a person needing a gun for self defense are something like .003% (national statistics, not anecdotal here and there stories), thus my statement is that I can't justify the investment for that purpose. If someone were to tell me that a certain golf club statistically is proven to hit a hole in one .003% of the time, I'd not buy that club either, as it makes little to no sense. I could have to use that particular club about 1000 times in the exact same scenario (which is virtually impossible) to make it even begin to possibly be effective.
Now, if someone purely wishes to spend money for recreational purposes, I think guns are as good as any other choice.
As to the risk to my well being, I think this discussion went down on Yoda's thread yesterday. We all agreed that if you start with stupid, you'll have a stupid gun owner.
well,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 9:50am.Why the fear?
Submitted by jlw on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 10:31am.He?
Submitted by chad360 on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 11:15am.I'd almost think you were just talking about guys if I didn't know you any better~
"Fear is the mind killer" -Frank Herbert, from his book Dune
Men commit 88% of all
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 11:53am.Has there been a single incident of a mass killing ...
Submitted by jlw on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 3:33pm.Sylvia Seegrist
Submitted by Tschida on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 4:01pm.One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.
Thomas Sowell
She drowned them with a firearm?
Submitted by jlw on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 4:06pm.This world's crazy, give me the gun. -- P.J. Harvey
Yep
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 4:37pm.I'm a fan of grim humor, but
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 4:39pm.You're right
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 4:44pm.I should have pictured the actual murder weapon instead...
Gugliemlo, that's hilarious.
Submitted by The Fire Inside on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 11:12pm.Gugliemlo, that's hilarious. In "Stars & Stripes" there was a cartoon of two prisoners locked in a cell (think 18th century incarceration). Both are chained to the wall.
One is saying to the other, "I've heard humor is tragedy plus time. I figure in a few years we'll have a good laugh over this."
San Marco
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 4:23pm.and,
Submitted by Rob Richards on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 4:25pm.Oh my....I'm not going to pile on, Tschida.....
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 5:07pm.read the post
The numbers of guns
Submitted by Krull on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 12:17pm.being carried by law abiding citizens with no intentions other than protecting themselves from the "whackos" out there, far outnumber the ones intent on harming others. I'm only guessing, but likely more than 99.9% to the .1%.
I do understand not being able to tell a whacko from a normal person at the drop of a hat. But you don't know if the Ryder truck parked on the corner is full of furniture or ANFO. Are you fearful of Ryder trucks? I'm kidding of course, but I hope you get my point. In case you didn't, behavior of the person plays heavily on whether you should be concerned.
"We Israelis sacrifice ourselves for our continued existence, our enemies sacrifice themselves for our destruction."--Unknown--
A back-of-the-envelope calculation
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 12:46pm.You have a best guess
Submitted by Krull on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 1:00pm.for all handgun crime. I was talking primarily mass murder, kind of what I gathered from Janet and her post. The guy that shoots up Micky D's, or a school. Very remote event.
"We Israelis sacrifice ourselves for our continued existence, our enemies sacrifice themselves for our destruction."--Unknown--
In that case
Submitted by Guglielmo on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 1:00pm.It may be relatively rare, but it looms large in people's minds
Submitted by jlw on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 4:04pm.Actually, although situations in which a whacko actually shoots and kills people in a public place may be fairly rare, mentally unstable people menacing others with a gun isn't rare at all. I've personally known of several such incidents. When no one is hurt, it usually doesn't even make the news. An unbalanced person threatening people with a gun is a reasonable cause for fear in my estimation -- and it's hard to instantly assess the mental health of a stranger.
This world's crazy, give me the gun. -- P.J. Harvey
If they are openly carrying,
Submitted by Mike on Thu, 01/10/2008 - 7:56am.the mental health of a stranger is probably fine. That takes a lot of ego balance. If they are openly carrying several weapons and a bag of ammunition, they need an intervention.
It's really a pretty easy calculation.
Woman openly carrying is clearly deranged, proceed with caution.
Heh
Submitted by jlw on Thu, 01/10/2008 - 11:11am.This world's crazy, give me the gun. -- P.J. Harvey
Social conditioning
Submitted by security_six on Thu, 01/10/2008 - 5:51pm.Call me old fashioned
Submitted by Guglielmo on Thu, 01/10/2008 - 6:07pm."Rights"
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Fri, 01/11/2008 - 10:24am."Rights" stipulate that I can stand on the corner with a sign that says "smile if you mastubate". Good sense and taste says it's probably not a great idea.
What's not a good idea
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 01/11/2008 - 10:25am.True
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 01/11/2008 - 1:05pm.Norm, it is a lot harder to ask someone to remove their tatoos
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 01/11/2008 - 1:29pm.I didn't say tattoo
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 01/11/2008 - 1:31pm.Well then, Norm
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 01/11/2008 - 1:33pm.Maybe I will
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 01/11/2008 - 1:34pm.No
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 01/11/2008 - 1:45pm.I am a social norm
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 01/11/2008 - 1:48pm.just not a socially accepted norm, according to some.
Heck
Submitted by security_six on Fri, 01/11/2008 - 5:37pm.Now, I realize stepping in
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Fri, 01/11/2008 - 2:38pm.Is Norm being adolescent because he's standing up for something you oppose? I remember the Protesters and their defenders took exception to being labeled with similar monikers questioning their maturity.
Don't worry Merwyn
Submitted by Norm on Fri, 01/11/2008 - 2:41pm.But why should
Submitted by security_six on Fri, 01/11/2008 - 5:35pm.Little old ladies and children fear my gun if I am not acting threatening? I remember in Seattle one time I met a sweet grandma and we were talking. She lives in a bad neighborhood and I asked her if she worried about it. She smiled and winked at me, while opening her purse. Tucked inside was a cute little nickle planted .38 snub nose revolver... There are a lot of elderly who keep guns for protection. I know guys who open carry and they tell me kids are the only ones who often notice their gun. They tell their parents innocently, "that guy has a gun" and mommy or daddy look at the guy, smile and go about their way. I used to wear a t-shirt with a big pot leaf on it when I was in San Diego. Should I have not, for fear of offending NA members and uptight right wingers?
I've been chewing on this
Submitted by JT on Sun, 01/13/2008 - 9:06am.specific comment for a couple days now.
"1. a reasonable person carrying a gun just because he's scared of other people in a level playing field."
There is no level field out there. How is a 6'-03" 250 # guy bent on raping a 5'-01" 110# woman a level field? I can tell you that in this example, the firearm makes a great equalizer.
And why do those against guns consider a person carrying a gun is fearful? Or is this just another way to demean gun owners because you don't agree with their choice?
“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will
Heard they shot anotherNo
Submitted by Merwyn Haskett on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 4:10pm.Question for everyone: How often would you say gun incidents go unreported in the news?
Open carry seems odd to me
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 4:34pm.I haven't quite put my finger on why.
In all reality, I'd rather know a person is armed, and deal with it if he goes nutty, than have no idea that he's a potential nutbag, and have him pull the gun out from under a coat. At least with the first scenario I have a little bit of warning.
Thank you, Norm
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 5:08pm.nt
That's how I feel
Submitted by security_six on Thu, 01/10/2008 - 11:10am.No, no, Chad and Tschida are right
Submitted by jlw on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 5:16pm.Update: And sorry to all you notorious female mass-killers I disregarded earlier. Your crimes count just as much as the men's. I apologize for overlooking you.
This world's crazy, give me the gun. -- P.J. Harvey
no way!
Submitted by chad360 on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 8:47pm.Chad, you're right! What a great point about casual pronoun use.
Submitted by jlw on Thu, 01/10/2008 - 5:52am.This world's crazy, give me the gun. -- P.J. Harvey
But it is also highly unlikely you will need your seatbelt
Submitted by CIAGuy on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 8:34pm.My gun
Submitted by Norm on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 8:53pm.I just thought of something....
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Fri, 01/11/2008 - 11:38am.yes...I know...dangerous when I start to think.
Is reaching for a light switch "fear of the dark" or is it just prudent thinking to avoid shin splints and bruises?
Norm and Six and others
Submitted by Guglielmo on Fri, 01/11/2008 - 3:09pm.Until now...
Submitted by Anonymously Larry on Fri, 01/11/2008 - 4:47pm.I was not considering images of any of the men on this blog in holsters only.
Thanks Gug