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Submitted by Krull on Wed, 01/09/2008 - 9:18am.

So why do us that are pro- 2nd amendment types like to have our guns with us? Are we compensating for something? Are we paranoid? Or do we think like good Boy Scouts and are prepared?

People like Anon-Larry think it isn’t a good use of money/resources. Or they think it’s unlikely it will ever be needed. Perhaps they believe it’s a risk to their well being if us gun lovers have our gun with us.

Of course I would disagree with each of those assertions. Guns hold their value very well, much better than a car or a computer for example. People who say it’s unlikely you will ever really need a gun, and yes they’re probably correct. But it is also highly unlikely you will need your seatbelt, but we put them on each time we get in the car. I can remember our first car that came with seatbelts. It was a 1966 Dodge Charger. I wore my seatbelt then, and still do to this day. In 42+ years of wearing a seatbelt, I have been involved in only two collisions neither of which wearing a seatbelt would have mattered. But guns, like a seatbelt, if you really need it you want to be sure you have it. Also, carrying a gun has next to no risk to John Q. Citizen.

So why do we gun nuts carry our guns, and why do the anti-gunners hate it so much?

Each day when we all get up and head out into the scary world we are all armed with various weapons. Our greatest weapon is our brain. If we are alert to our surroundings, and use some common sense we can avoid 99% of the danger out there. The next weapons we all have, is our body parts. Our hands, feet, elbows, teeth, etc. are all weapons. Even if you have never been in a fight or trained to fight, we can still fight and use the weapons we all carry. We all can deploy empty hand defense, but like most things the better trained you are the better you can do. Next there are inanimate weapons. Those would be a can of pepper spray, keys, kubaton, taser, brass knuckles, knife, etc. Some of these weapons require some training, and all should be practiced with. Next on the list of weapons is likely the firearm. The firearm is at the top of a force continuum for cops or citizens alike. The gun is the most narrow form of self defense, so things have to really go to shit, or be about to go to shit to display it and/or use it. As you may know, one of the firearm safety rules is not to point the gun at anything you are not willing or justified to shoot. So you can’t and shouldn’t be waving it around at the drop of a hat. Nor should you use it to intimidate a person you are threatened by if you can’t use it against him/her. But when the shit hits the fan, you don’t want to bring a can of pepper spray to an event that requires or is best designed for a gun.

The daily strapping on a gun is like the daily putting your shoes on or your wallet in your pocket. Over time you begin to not even know it’s there. It is a part of you like your other clothing. If you train with it, and practice with it, you will be good with it if you need to use it. And you will be able to be safe with it so as not to endanger yourself or others.

So why don’t the anti-gunners like us gun nuts walking around with guns. In this state there are thousands of people carrying guns concealed every day (I tried to find some numbers but couldn’t located something current). You likely stand in line at the bank, grocery store, or wherever you go with someone or perhaps many people with guns. So what is the problem? Why the fear?

»

I don't fear guns any more than I fear alcohol

Many, many people enjoy alcohol everyday with no ill effect. Yet thousands of people are killed every year by drunk drivers. That is a cost of alcohol that society is apparently willing to bear. Guns also have a cost associated with them. As you can see in the following graph, firearm deaths of children are highly associated with the availability of guns. It is a cost society is apparently willing to accept.  However, you really shouldn't be surprized that not everyone agrees with that. I don't fear guns or facts.

 

Firearms and Kids
»

Gug, I don't

see how your response applies to the question, which is dealing with concealed (or open) carry of guns. Your response would fit better with a post about general ownership of guns.

But since you brought it up. Are we ok with loss of freedoms for more safety? Less guns/safer kids? Isn't that one of the rubs with the Patriot Act? Giving up freedoms for more safety?

"We Israelis sacrifice ourselves for our continued existence, our enemies sacrifice themselves for our destruction."--Unknown--

»

I'm not suggesting policy options

other than better education or public awareness. Or are you afraid of someone open carrying ordinary data?
»

I see you are only interested in why people "fear"

the idea of folks carrying weapons. But that "fear" has a lot to do with how people feel about guns in general. But I'll stick with the carry issue if I contribute any more to this thread.

Edit: I don’t fear open or conceal carry. In my opinion, open carry is a breech of civil decorum. It says “I don’t trust this community and I don’t care what other people think.” It is anti-social. It is, in Olympia, unnecessary. Those who conceal, do so unnecessarily in my opinion, but it’s their business and I’m glad they keep it that way.

»

I appreciate your opinion..

I don’t fear open or conceal carry. In my opinion, open carry is a breech of civil decorum. It says “I don’t trust this community and I don’t care what other people think.” It is anti-social. It is, in Olympia, unnecessary. Those who conceal, do so unnecessarily in my opinion, but it’s their business and I’m glad they keep it that way.

 

Of course I will argue with it :-)
It has nothing to  do with trusting a community.  Part of it is a political statement.  OC is a lost art in many parts of this country, and those of us who OC are concerned with losing that right altogether.  As they say on www.OpenCarry.org "A right unexercised is a right lost"

As far as a breach of civil decorum, there are a lot of things that could be considered that.  I view a group of unruly youths loudly playing music and hanging out on a street corner smoking a breach of civil decorum.  Others in that social group would find it perfectly normal.  Some would say a person with body piercing and colored hair going into Benaroya Hall to listen to the Seattle Symphony is a breach of civil decorum.  I say we all have a right to our culture and lifestyles so long as the rights of others are not infringed.  I am uncomfortable with some lifestyles and choices, but I accept them, and ask only the same.  

As far as claiming a person does not "need" to OC in Oly, that is purely a matter of personal judgement.  One does not "need" to do a lot of things.  I don't "need" Gore-Tex, but it makes life a lot easier.  I don't "need" to OC, but it is who I am, and I choose to do so.  When I go to Seattle I almost never CC.  In Oly it is about a 50/50 mix.

I don't have a lot of time right now to get into the pros and cons of OC, but am going to start a blog entry about you.  You raised some good points worthy of discussion Gug and I'm more than happy to discuss them in their own thread if you or anyone else is.   

»

Let's let Larry speak for himself.

"People like Anon-Larry think it isn’t a good use of money/resources. Or they think it’s unlikely it will ever be needed. Perhaps they believe it’s a risk to their well being if us gun lovers have our gun with us."

Incorrect statement.  I'll clarify.

Statistically, the chances of a person needing a gun for self defense are something like .003% (national statistics, not anecdotal here and there stories), thus my statement is that I can't justify the investment for that purpose.   If someone were to tell me that a certain golf club statistically is proven to hit a hole in one .003% of the time, I'd not buy that club either, as it makes little to no sense.  I could have to use that particular club about 1000 times in the exact same scenario (which is virtually impossible) to make it even begin to possibly be effective.

Now, if someone purely wishes to spend money for recreational purposes, I think guns are as good as any other choice.

As to the risk to my well being, I think this discussion went down on Yoda's thread yesterday.  We all agreed that if you start with stupid, you'll have a stupid gun owner.

»

well,

I've been thinking about a point brought up before, on another thread, that raised an interesting question for me. Does the advancement of technology render the constitution obsolete? What I mean is, the founders had no way of knowing what kind of gun technology would be available to the average person in the year 2008. Would they have written the 2nd Amendment so vaguely had they known the problems we have today with guns being used for crimes at such a high rate? I struggle with the idea that we want absolute freedom to own any kind of gun, when that freedom is taken advantage of in such destructive ways.

image
»

Why the fear?

Because all too often some guy with a gun strapped on pulls it out and shoots up a school or a restaurant or a shopping center for no discernible reason. That's why people fear strangers walking around with guns. You can't really tell by looking at some guy with a gun if he is: 1. a reasonable person carrying a gun just because he's scared of other people in a level playing field, or 2. he's weird enough to enjoy seeing the fear in other people's eyes when they see his gun, but isn't planning to actually use it, or 3. he's planning to shoot up a McDonald's because he can't get a date. Maybe if gun carriers had some sort of certificate of mental health stamped on their forehead, there would be no reason for fear, but given the high number of incidents where whackos shoot up public spaces randomly, I think the fear is justified.
»

He?

I'd almost think you were just talking about guys if I didn't know you any better~

"Fear is the mind killer" -Frank Herbert, from his book Dune

»

Men commit 88% of all

Men commit 88% of all homicides according to the DOJ. It's most likily a "he."
»

Has there been a single incident of a mass killing ...

...by a female with a firearm?

»

Sylvia Seegrist

Jennifer San Marco Beverly Allitt The lady who drowned her children in a bath tub in Texas, there are more but I am short on time. C.

One of the great non sequiturs of the left is that, if the free market doesn't work perfectly, then it doesn't work at all-- and the government should step in.

Thomas Sowell

»

She drowned them with a firearm?

I didn't realize...

This world's crazy, give me the gun. -- P.J. Harvey

»

Yep

She was packing a Super Soaker...
»

I'm a fan of grim humor, but

I'm a fan of grim humor, but seeing as how this is in reference to a mom who drowned her children....

»

You're right

I should have pictured the actual murder weapon instead...

»

Gugliemlo, that's hilarious.

Gugliemlo, that's hilarious. In "Stars & Stripes" there was a cartoon of two prisoners locked in a cell (think 18th century incarceration). Both are chained to the wall.

One is saying to the other, "I've heard humor is tragedy plus time. I figure in a few years we'll have a good laugh over this."

»

San Marco

Is the only firearm using female mass murderer I've found so far. I did find one report that stated that females are more likely to use poison or "accidents" to kill, than guns or bombs.

image
»

and,

Seegrist is not a mass murder, because a killer must have four or more victims at one time to be considered a mass murderer.

image
»

Oh my....I'm not going to pile on, Tschida.....

read the post

»

The numbers of guns

being carried by law abiding citizens with no intentions other than protecting themselves from the "whackos" out there, far outnumber the ones intent on harming others. I'm only guessing, but likely more than 99.9% to the .1%.

I do understand not being able to tell a whacko from a normal person at the drop of a hat. But you don't know if the Ryder truck parked on the corner is full of furniture or ANFO. Are you fearful of Ryder trucks? I'm kidding of course, but I hope you get my point. In case you didn't, behavior of the person plays heavily on whether you should be concerned.

"We Israelis sacrifice ourselves for our continued existence, our enemies sacrifice themselves for our destruction."--Unknown--

»

A back-of-the-envelope calculation

There are roughly 59 million gun owners in the US. I don't know how many of those are handgun owners, let's say about a third unless someone comes up with a real number. In one year there are about 700,000 firearm (mostly handgun) related crimes. A number of crimes go unreported, but some crimes are also committed by the same person. Let's consider that a wash. "Intent" is a difficult concept to measure or conceptualize, so let's leave that out of the equation. That means, in one year, about 3.5% of handgun owners committed these crimes. I admit this was a quick and dirty analysis. But I think the 99.9% is a tad optomistic, especially if you look at their behavior over more than just one year.
»

You have a best guess

for all handgun crime. I was talking primarily mass murder, kind of what I gathered from Janet and her post. The guy that shoots up Micky D's, or a school. Very remote event.

"We Israelis sacrifice ourselves for our continued existence, our enemies sacrifice themselves for our destruction."--Unknown--

»

In that case

Yes, a rare person indeed.
»

It may be relatively rare, but it looms large in people's minds

They aren't putting metal detectors in schools for nothing.

Actually, although situations in which a whacko actually shoots and kills people in a public place may be fairly rare, mentally unstable people menacing others with a gun isn't rare at all. I've personally known of several such incidents. When no one is hurt, it usually doesn't even make the news. An unbalanced person threatening people with a gun is a reasonable cause for fear in my estimation -- and it's hard to instantly assess the mental health of a stranger.

This world's crazy, give me the gun. -- P.J. Harvey

»

If they are openly carrying,

the mental health of a stranger is probably fine.  That takes a lot of ego balance. If they are openly carrying several weapons and a bag of ammunition, they need an intervention. 

It's really a pretty easy calculation.  

Woman openly carrying is clearly deranged, proceed with caution.  

»

Heh

Clearly!

This world's crazy, give me the gun. -- P.J. Harvey

»

Social conditioning

Go to Arizona and you will see a lot of folks walking around with guns.  It's a deep rooted part of their culture and is accepted there.  Of course Kalifornians and other undesirables move there and try and impose their own cultural norms and there is conflict.  Washington State has one of the highest issuance rates of Concealed Carry Permits.  I can't cite, but one estimate is that while about 10% of Washingtonians have CCP's only about 1 in 100 is carrying at any given time.  Of course so many people have irrational fears about armed citizens (some of the safest people in the country) most people hide their guns.  This is a complete reversal of standards.  At one time concealed weapons were considered sneaky and cowardly...  now they are accepted, if not demanded, and those who would openly wear their sidearms are viewed as dangerous.  Folks, 1 out of 100 of us still have that gun.  Few show it though.  Do you want to guess who has the legal gun hidden, or know who has the legal gun?  Criminals do not openly wear their guns, they hide them, and bring them out when they are ready to use them.  Not to say CC is a bad thing, I do it myself, but OC does let you know who has them, and what they are acting like.  
»

Call me old fashioned

I think it's rude to sit down at a meal with your hat on. If you did it at my table, I'd probably suggest (with a touch of humor) that you remove it. If I was at a park with some little old ladies and kids and I saw you open carrying, I'd (very) politely ask you if you wouldn't mind concealing it or locking it in your car. This is not about "rights" from my perspective. It's about acknowledging how our behavior influences others and taking care of each other...or manners. Social norms dictate manners. If I lived in Galina, Alaska or the Yak River Valley, I would probably react much differently to open carrying. But I live in Olympia. I understand what you are trying to do, Six, and I genuinely respect the way you present your case. But the title of this thread is “Why the Fear?” I think that title over simplifies the issue, certainly from my perspective.
»

"Rights"

"Rights" stipulate that I can stand on the corner with a sign that says "smile if you mastubate".  Good sense and taste says it's probably not a great idea.

»

What's not a good idea

Holding up the sign or smiling?
»

True

and I agree with you, but where does that stop? What if Mom and child are at the park and one of the local kids wearing a spiked dog collar, with more metal on their face than on a 747, comes by and frightens them. Do you ask them to take their jewelery back into their car, because they look dangerous, or scary? They have a right to wear that in public, but is it the best course?
»

Norm, it is a lot harder to ask someone to remove their tatoos

than it is to ask someone to put his little toy away. If I listened to every "what if" I'd be paralized. Fortunately, I can deal with ambiguity and grey areas. ADDED: I was at a Mariners game once and the guy sitting in front of me kept saying "fuck" this and "fuck" that. I finally leaned in and said, "Dude, there's grandmas and kids here. Do you mind?" Are you gong to worry about what I should do if the guy was just saying "hell" or "damn it?"
»

I didn't say tattoo

I said jewelery. It all comes back to the same thing, perceived fear do to the media. Odds are you will see multiple people carrying a weapon of some sort in your lifetime (find some numbers Jim) and never end up harmed by them. You are conditioned to be afraid because of the news and movies etc. Which is the same reason that Mother and Child in this scenario would be afraid of someone with the spiked collar with metal bits all over their face.
»

Well then, Norm

You go right ahead and open carry then. I know you're all for it.
»

Maybe I will

I'll invite Rick to take a walk with me while I'm at it. Wanna come to?
»

No

Feel free to carry out this adolescent rebelion without me. But I'm happy to hang out with you when you're being a social norm.
»

I am a social norm

just not a socially accepted norm, according to some.

»

Heck

Let's all have a nice open minded get together over coffee at Java Flow down by the bus terminal.  I OC in there all the time.  I'm more than happy to meet folks.  Catch me on a working day (Wednesday through Sunday) and I won't be packing.  Catch me Monday or Tuesday and I'll be packing.  
»

Now, I realize stepping in

Now, I realize stepping in between two people fighting can get me a busted jaw, but I'll brave it.

Is Norm being adolescent because he's standing up for something you oppose? I remember the Protesters and their defenders took exception to being labeled with similar monikers questioning their maturity.

»

Don't worry Merwyn

I won't hit ya ;)
»

But why should

Little old ladies and children fear my gun if I am not acting threatening?  I remember in Seattle one time I met a sweet grandma and we were talking.  She lives in a bad neighborhood and I asked her if she worried about it.  She smiled and winked at me, while opening her purse.  Tucked inside was a cute little nickle planted .38 snub nose revolver...  There are a lot of elderly who keep guns for protection.  I know guys who open carry and they tell me kids are the only ones who often notice their gun.  They tell their parents innocently, "that guy has a gun" and mommy or daddy look at the guy, smile and go about their way.  I used to wear a t-shirt with a big pot leaf on it when I was in San Diego.  Should I have not, for fear of offending NA members and uptight right wingers?  

 

 

»

I've been chewing on this

specific comment for a couple days now.

"1. a reasonable person carrying a gun just because he's scared of other people in a level playing field."

There is no level field out there. How is a 6'-03" 250 # guy bent on raping a 5'-01" 110# woman a level field? I can tell you that in this example, the firearm makes a great equalizer.

And why do those against guns consider a person carrying a gun is fearful? Or is this just another way to demean gun owners because you don't agree with their choice?

“America passes the critical gate test. Open the gate and see where people go – in or out. This is still the country people flock to.” George Will

»

Heard they shot anotherNo

Heard they shot another
No one knows the reason
Didn't make the papers
It's just another wild night
Here in White Center
Damien Jurado, White Center

Question for everyone: How often would you say gun incidents go unreported in the news?

»

Open carry seems odd to me

I haven't quite put my finger on why.

In all reality, I'd rather know a person is armed, and deal with it if he goes nutty, than have no idea that he's a potential nutbag, and have him pull the gun out from under a coat. At least with the first scenario I have a little bit of warning.

»

Thank you, Norm

nt

»

That's how I feel

If I know someone is armed, that gives me an edge than if I don't know it.  I would imagine this goes for everyone.  If you see me and my gun you can assess what I am doing.  If you just see me and not my gun then I am just another person and unknown factor.
»

No, no, Chad and Tschida are right

I was a sexist. Going postal is a problem for both genders. Seriously. If I saw a crazy lady with a gun in Burger King, and a crazy guy with a gun in McDonald's, I wouldn't feel safe anywhere -- I would just have to skip lunch. I apologize to all of you fellas for implying that men shoot people with firearms more frequently than women do. Now let's not waste any more time discussing my faux pas. SORRY GUYS!!

Update: And sorry to all you notorious female mass-killers I disregarded earlier. Your crimes count just as much as the men's. I apologize for overlooking you.

This world's crazy, give me the gun. -- P.J. Harvey

»

no way!

I thought it was just casual pronoun use, and my point was to try to avoid the whole fear reaction...stops the brain from working.
»

Chad, you're right! What a great point about casual pronoun use.

I'm conceding. You were right and I was wrong. So just lie back and enjoy it.

This world's crazy, give me the gun. -- P.J. Harvey

»

But it is also highly unlikely you will need your seatbelt

But...my seatbelt, used properly, will cause no harm to me or anyone else.
»

My gun

Used properly, will cause no harm to me or anyone else, unless I intend it to. Currently it has caused less harm than my car, less harm than any lake I've ever swam in, less harm than any restaurant I've eaten at, ETC
»

I just thought of something....

yes...I know...dangerous when I start to think.

Is reaching for a light switch "fear of the dark" or is it just prudent thinking to avoid shin splints and bruises?

»

Norm and Six and others

are all free to parade around in their holsters. They are aslo free to blame the social response on fear. I admit it, I am also afraid of hats.
»

Until now...

I was not considering images of any of the men on this blog in holsters only.

Thanks Gug

»

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